From lojban-beginners+bncCML0xpmUARDjl-_fBBoEZX-D7w@googlegroups.com Tue May 25 06:09:09 2010 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1OGtsT-0004PH-6b; Tue, 25 May 2010 06:09:09 -0700 Received: by vws8 with SMTP id 8sf3774025vws.16 for ; Tue, 25 May 2010 06:08:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=8hluhziQ07+BXODlGz4QOu7/CfX13C+1ZuXxqvtcljg=; b=5c4S00u5lTYapIBbxEvef/zv4ah7mZ2IdyPg4RZKdsPd447LhBKf6UHpiXuMyfVqWV nJMKBsZ/qEeZIGPHxznFClqWExE582hVdvwl6IZEvwzRGRLUQQl/DfDOrCVx8fnkIW0d obVZCIkoB+fc9h5roPkvO34ylgRC5TqO0DfFk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=FFSE57o+a30PtieUy7CtTfNpYI133m7xggJFRFXVH0jFXsLeXUsPBIAoajldr8uXOr ZNVUY+LzAcshVNKe4GgvsuXGp2Qrwau7sV3zREQ5Mi6YHmW7hliN3kfa1fOyVkwwwvHS EJB5ulGipOQS5UBEy4AS3+pOFjiJ5CRNPX7vA= Received: by 10.229.43.209 with SMTP id x17mr1161838qce.25.1274792931773; Tue, 25 May 2010 06:08:51 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.179.165 with SMTP id bq37ls2657741qcb.3.p; Tue, 25 May 2010 06:08:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.35.13 with SMTP id n13mr728176qad.9.1274792930914; Tue, 25 May 2010 06:08:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.35.13 with SMTP id n13mr728175qad.9.1274792930862; Tue, 25 May 2010 06:08:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f110.google.com (mail-qy0-f110.google.com [209.85.221.110]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id l27si3683270vcr.2.2010.05.25.06.08.49; Tue, 25 May 2010 06:08:49 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.110 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.221.110; Received: by qyk8 with SMTP id 8so351264qyk.7 for ; Tue, 25 May 2010 06:08:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.95.152 with SMTP id d24mr3898251qan.384.1274792929206; Tue, 25 May 2010 06:08:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.37.4 with HTTP; Tue, 25 May 2010 06:08:49 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 25 May 2010 09:08:49 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] tcati From: Ian Johnson To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.110 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00c09f8993f9b5286404876adbd5 --00c09f8993f9b5286404876adbd5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 So essentially this trick is using the informality of names, which could be lessened if necessary using other tags (but here isn't especially necessary)? That makes sense. I'm a little amused that I came here saying that what I said is wrong but should be right..and then it actually turns out to be right (in the area that I was concerned about anyway). Also, your comment about {loi}: is that a xorlo concept I didn't know about? In LFB there is the example: la bil. ze'u pinxe loi birje which is justified by saying that we do not drink "a beer but rather some beer". This is from http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/lojbanbrochure/lessons/less6selbritime.html But then in xorlo {lo birje} isn't "something which really is a beer" anymore (necessarily), but "one or more thing(s) associated with beer considered individually". Is that what's going on? ki'e .i mu'o mi'e latros. On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 4:37 AM, tijlan wrote: > On 24 May 2010 22:45, Ian Johnson wrote: > >> Why doesn't tcati have a species place? I intuitively went to say: >> mi nelci loi tcati be la'o ly. aspalathus linearis ly. >> by which I meant "I like tea of the species *aspalathus linearis*." which >> is to say "I like rooibos tea.", thinking that tcati was defined as: >> "x1 is a quantity of tea brewed from leaves of species x2." >> or (in this case I would've been incorrect regardless, but it would make >> more sense this way): >> "x1 is a quantity of tea brewed from leaves x2 of species x3." >> >> Why isn't it defined in a way anything like this? Is there an "of species" >> sumti tcita? Preferably a bit more restricted than {le'a}? >> > > "Rooibos" can be both a leaf and a category, just like "human" can be both > an animal and a category. If a leaf goes by the name of "rooibos", then its > species is naturally "aspalathus linearis". > > mi nelci loi tcati be la'o ly. aspalathus linearis ly. > This means that I like tea brewed from leaves named aspalathus linearis, at > the same time connoting that the leaves are of species "aspalathus > linearis". > > Note that this particular "la'o ly. aspalathus linearis ly." are individual > leaves, not a set like a species would be. Without a context, we wouldn't be > able to tell, unless it's marked with "lu'a" (individual) or "lu'i" (set). > > With "loi tcati", you are implying that the bridi would not be true if the > tea were not a mass, meaning that the event of you liking rooibos tea is > caused by the tea being a mass. So, if I invite you to my house, I would > think that I have to offer you multiple cups of rooibos tea *at once* > because it's uncertain that you would be pleased with an individual cup or > successive individual cups. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --00c09f8993f9b5286404876adbd5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
So essentially this trick is using the informality of names,=A0which c= ould be lessened if necessary using other tags (but here isn't especial= ly necessary)? That makes sense.=A0I'm a little amused that I came here= saying that what I said is wrong but should be right..and then it=A0actual= ly turns out to be right (in the area that I was concerned about anyway).
=A0
Also, your comment about {loi}: is that a=A0xorlo concept I didn't= know about? In LFB there is the example:
la bil. ze'u pinxe loi birje
= which is justified by saying that we do not drink "a beer but rather s= ome beer". This is from http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis= /lojbanbrochure/lessons/less6selbritime.html

But then in xorlo {lo birje} isn't "something which really is = a beer" anymore (necessarily), but=A0"one or more thing(s) associ= ated with beer considered individually".=A0Is that=A0what's going = on?=A0
=A0
ki'e .i mu'o mi'e latros.
=A0
On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 4:37 AM, tijlan <jbotijlan@gmail.com> wrote:
On 24 May 2010 22:45, Ian Johnson <<= a href=3D"mailto:blindbravado@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">blindbravado@gma= il.com> wrote:
Why doesn't tcat= i have a species place? I intuitively went to say:
mi nelci loi tcati be= la'o ly. aspalathus linearis ly.
by which I meant "I like tea of the species aspalathus linearis= ." which is to say "I like rooibos tea.", thinking that tcat= i was defined as:
"x1 is a quantity of tea brewed from leaves of sp= ecies x2."
or (in this case I would've been incorrect regardless, but it would mak= e more sense this way):
"x1 is a quantity of tea brewed from leaves= x2 of species x3."

Why isn't it defined in a way anything = like this? Is there an "of species" sumti tcita? Preferably a bit= more restricted than {le'a}?

"Rooibos" can be both a leaf and a category, just like &= quot;human" can be both an animal and a category. If a leaf goes by th= e name of "rooibos", then its species is naturally "aspalath= us linearis".=20

=A0mi nelci loi tcati be la'o ly. aspalathus line= aris ly.
This means that I like tea brewed from leaves named aspal= athus linearis, at the same time connoting that the leaves are of species &= quot;aspalathus linearis".

Note that this particular "la'o ly. aspalathus linearis ly.&qu= ot; are individual leaves, not a set like a species would be. Without a con= text, we wouldn't be able to tell, unless it's marked with "lu= 'a" (individual) or "lu'i" (set).

With "loi tcati", you are implying that the bridi would not b= e true if the tea were not a mass, meaning that the event of you liking roo= ibos tea is caused by the tea being a mass. So, if I invite you to my house= , I would think that I have to offer you multiple cups of rooibos tea *at o= nce* because it's uncertain that you would be pleased with an individua= l cup or successive individual cups.

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For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.

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