From lojban-beginners+bncCOjSjrXVGBCAj4ffBBoEAL5g6g@googlegroups.com Wed May 05 12:31:39 2010 Received: from mail-pz0-f165.google.com ([209.85.222.165]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O9kJe-00061T-EF; Wed, 05 May 2010 12:31:37 -0700 Received: by pzk37 with SMTP id 37sf749475pzk.25 for ; Wed, 05 May 2010 12:31:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=mBBPofZ6qMoYI5mroC8YR0ZF71dMbClZGPCZ1gIJQ/o=; b=SDimX2JrzPV49HhqAEAKp/Bhib6+A26bybBA4xonOV65dtnqwlq/362zagoW9WHG/A qg1mazHG7J/5/IIFmdssC1O96JfpPitchF5ZOPQg8bQuB7avHAXcJy85/3yDowo1vDvt XhU99JgHh0LyhfP3bz74/d7TMmaHy3fEyDzRA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=hlP/FMOuCdaHDRtF4awYwJLIjZP+qavhKm6sNzWcDaAzGLlgPl4ckF79W1x5OXTPSi 0oSCcZ/P8N2x/FhWEi09z6maKAhHs6h68rdcCorKuvGs9yIdbqaqv4pTE6XKDJbJ+vke 2MLBveeKqBGypvHkwi4lwuQdqLt79hbkK6v1s= Received: by 10.115.80.5 with SMTP id h5mr2412289wal.15.1273087872401; Wed, 05 May 2010 12:31:12 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.115.133.33 with SMTP id k33ls6258743wan.2.p; Wed, 05 May 2010 12:31:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.187.6 with SMTP id k6mr2791375waf.23.1273087870793; Wed, 05 May 2010 12:31:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.187.6 with SMTP id k6mr2791374waf.23.1273087870738; Wed, 05 May 2010 12:31:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f49.google.com (mail-vw0-f49.google.com [209.85.212.49]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id u10si113485wak.2.2010.05.05.12.31.09; Wed, 05 May 2010 12:31:09 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.49 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.49; Received: by mail-vw0-f49.google.com with SMTP id 17so712385vws.8 for ; Wed, 05 May 2010 12:31:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.129.14 with SMTP id m14mr1516023vcs.195.1273087869029; Wed, 05 May 2010 12:31:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.94.77 with HTTP; Wed, 5 May 2010 12:31:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <2035EAA2-54C5-4259-BC7C-497A1CA2A4F5@mac.com> Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 15:31:08 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Proposed change to smart.fm items From: Luke Bergen To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.49 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e0cb4e88760b338f090485ddde28 --e0cb4e88760b338f090485ddde28 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 hmm, would it be unreasonable for the x2 of nelci/djica to be an event/property BUT in the case where an object (ko'a) is supplied it is assumed to be {tu'a ko'a}? On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 3:25 PM, Ian Johnson wrote: > I see {djica} in an abstract way as being similar to why we have all 4 of > ri'a, mu'i, ni'i, and ki'u. The notion that "you want a thing" makes as much > logical sense as "Sally hit you *physically because *you pulled her hair" > in this sense, because whenever you want a thing there is something that you > want to happen or be true (usually to "have" the thing or something related > to that). > > On the other hand you could make the argument that {nelci} should then take > a {ka} and then you "like about ", which > would be kind of cumbersome. > > On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 9:45 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > >> >> >> On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 3:04 AM, tijlan wrote: >> >>> On 2 May 2010 01:10, Kevin Reid wrote: >>> >>>> I propose to change the English text for the following gismu place items >>>> in the "Lojban gismu" smart.fm goal as follows: >>>> >>>> lo se djica something desired => a state desired >>>> >>>> To emphasize that lo se djica is not a physical object. >>>> >>> >>> Yes, that's the official definition. But I don't see why it should not >>> include a physical object, when {nelci}'s x2 does. >>> >>> >>> lo te troci a method of trial => a method tried >>>> >>>> The existing wording sounds like "a method of testing", not >>>> "the way we tried to do it". >>>> >>> >>> {lo te troci} can also mean a method that "is to be tried", "is going to >>> be tried", "is being tried" etc., not only the preterite (past) "tried". I >>> suggest "method of effort" instead. >>> >>> The keyword for troci is "try", not "effort". All the English >> translations need to have the keyword in them in some way. This is, by the >> way, the only objection I have to any proposed changes now or in the future >> regarding the Smart.fm lists. (Not that I might not have other objections >> for any particular case, but this is the only objection that would apply to >> ANY suggestion.) >> >>> >>> >>>> lo se troci something tried => ??? >>>> >>>> This seems misleading in that it sounds like "I tried a new food" >>>> or similar. "something tried for" would be better, but I don't quite >>>> like it. >>>> >>> >>> Maybe "goal of effort". >>> >> >> See above comment regarding my opinion on this. >> >>> >>> >>> >>>> lo te jimpe a subject of something understood => >>>> a subject understood about >>>> >>>> Trying to make the relation clearer. >>>> >>> >>> Maybe "topic of fact understood". >>> >> >> Personally, I think "[a] topic of fact understood" is actually worse than >> "a subject of something understood". >> >>> >>> >>> mu'o mi'e tijlan >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Lojban Beginners" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --e0cb4e88760b338f090485ddde28 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hmm, would it be unreasonable for the x2 of nelci/djica to be an event/prop= erty BUT in the case where an object (ko'a) is supplied it is assumed t= o be {tu'a ko'a}?

On Wed, May 5, = 2010 at 3:25 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:
I see {djica} in an abstract way as being s= imilar to why we have all 4 of ri'a, mu'i, ni'i, and ki'u. = The notion that "you want a thing" makes as much logical sense as= "Sally hit you physically because you pulled her hair" in= this sense, because whenever you want a thing there is something that you = want to happen or be true (usually to "have" the thing or somethi= ng related to that).

On the other hand you could make the argument that {nelci} should then = take a {ka} and then you "like <some property(ies)> about <so= mething(s)>", which would be kind of cumbersome.

On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 9:45 AM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com><= /span> wrote:


On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 3:04 AM, tij= lan <jbotijlan@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2 May 2010 01:10, Kevin Reid <kpreid@mac= .com> wrote:
I propose to change the English text for the following gismu place items in= the "Lojban gismu" smart.fm goal as follows:

=A0lo se djica =A0 something desired =3D> a state desired

=A0 =A0To emphasize that lo se djica is not a physical object.

Yes, that's the official definition. But I don'= t see why it should not include a physical object, when {nelci}'s x2 do= es.


=A0lo te troci =A0 a method of trial =3D> a method tried

=A0 =A0The existing wording sounds like "a method of testing", n= ot
=A0 =A0"the way we tried to do it".
<= br>{lo te troci} can also mean a method that "is to be tried", &q= uot;is going to be tried", "is being tried" etc., not only t= he preterite (past) "tried". I suggest "method of effort&quo= t; instead.

The keyword for troci is "try&= quot;, not "effort". All the English translations need to have th= e keyword in them in some way. This is, by the way, the only objection I ha= ve to any proposed changes now or in the future regarding the Smart.fm list= s. (Not that I might not have other objections for any particular case, but= this is the only objection that would apply to ANY suggestion.)
=A0
=A0lo se troci =A0 something tried =3D> ???

=A0 =A0This seems misleading in that it sounds like "I tried a new fo= od"
=A0 =A0or similar. "something tried for" would be better, but I = don't quite
=A0 =A0like it.

Maybe "goal of effort&= quot;.

See above comment regardi= ng my opinion on this.

=A0
=A0lo te jimpe =A0 a subject of something understood =3D>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0a subject understood about

=A0 =A0Trying to make the relation clearer.
Maybe "topic of fact understood".

Personally, I think "[a] topic of fact understood" i= s actually worse than "a subject of something understood".


mu'o mi'e tijlan

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.



--
= mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe d= enpa bu

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.
--e0cb4e88760b338f090485ddde28--