From lojban-beginners+bncCML0xpmUARC76offBBoETgla_g@googlegroups.com Wed May 05 15:46:36 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O9nML-0003bG-D0; Wed, 05 May 2010 15:46:35 -0700 Received: by wyb36 with SMTP id 36sf2688504wyb.16 for ; Wed, 05 May 2010 15:46:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=LtJEWhwsr8vlEzW6424Ym6xsvQChfVNl/TtoJfdRL/Q=; b=eN9E+nDR6NDzeShs2NpIrZvFKuusuDUVef+iiOsDEoSEZQQ1jSlO0lbWo7Jt+T8ppq B/zjAQfEM8YlZX7FggPnnwq9lY6trMQq/YG1HfSgGEdEP+GwKcV/PI1Xz+AbLD5hU9Ji xv91nJ/twmfno6mLlT3W87h3JgC3f0/I1HkwM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=J/ORL21nzKhZP1L93Lj0/1nr9+vzaP2zVgbRMLL+DmHKzC/kWv8uNctdzozqnevBkx EjSM/lqzvqqaL1OBN6OJCanIrO4422m5X9n4aepVqqWUGUV1FryInSeXKGuAmGmgbQg8 8IX1tfd9OP1JPxbvFQ/l7gjcN3SCnM5F595PQ= Received: by 10.223.5.152 with SMTP id 24mr4097842fav.9.1273099579679; Wed, 05 May 2010 15:46:19 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.213.59.76 with SMTP id k12ls1549516ebh.3.p; Wed, 05 May 2010 15:46:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.213.52.207 with SMTP id j15mr1549547ebg.3.1273099577999; Wed, 05 May 2010 15:46:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.213.52.207 with SMTP id j15mr1549546ebg.3.1273099577928; Wed, 05 May 2010 15:46:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f194.google.com (mail-qy0-f194.google.com [209.85.221.194]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 11si25941ewy.1.2010.05.05.15.46.16; Wed, 05 May 2010 15:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.194 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.221.194; Received: by mail-qy0-f194.google.com with SMTP id 32so8688981qyk.0 for ; Wed, 05 May 2010 15:46:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.224.133 with SMTP id io5mr4839001qcb.37.1273099576082; Wed, 05 May 2010 15:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.141.10 with HTTP; Wed, 5 May 2010 15:46:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <2035EAA2-54C5-4259-BC7C-497A1CA2A4F5@mac.com> Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 18:46:16 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Proposed change to smart.fm items From: Ian Johnson To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.194 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016363b8510ff05c50485e097e5 --0016363b8510ff05c50485e097e5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 If you can assume {tu'a ko'a} I think you might lose formal parsability... On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 3:31 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > hmm, would it be unreasonable for the x2 of nelci/djica to be an > event/property BUT in the case where an object (ko'a) is supplied it is > assumed to be {tu'a ko'a}? > > > On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 3:25 PM, Ian Johnson wrote: > >> I see {djica} in an abstract way as being similar to why we have all 4 of >> ri'a, mu'i, ni'i, and ki'u. The notion that "you want a thing" makes as much >> logical sense as "Sally hit you *physically because *you pulled her hair" >> in this sense, because whenever you want a thing there is something that you >> want to happen or be true (usually to "have" the thing or something related >> to that). >> >> On the other hand you could make the argument that {nelci} should then >> take a {ka} and then you "like about ", >> which would be kind of cumbersome. >> >> On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 9:45 AM, Jonathan Jones wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 3:04 AM, tijlan wrote: >>> >>>> On 2 May 2010 01:10, Kevin Reid wrote: >>>> >>>>> I propose to change the English text for the following gismu place >>>>> items in the "Lojban gismu" smart.fm goal as follows: >>>>> >>>>> lo se djica something desired => a state desired >>>>> >>>>> To emphasize that lo se djica is not a physical object. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Yes, that's the official definition. But I don't see why it should not >>>> include a physical object, when {nelci}'s x2 does. >>>> >>>> >>>> lo te troci a method of trial => a method tried >>>>> >>>>> The existing wording sounds like "a method of testing", not >>>>> "the way we tried to do it". >>>>> >>>> >>>> {lo te troci} can also mean a method that "is to be tried", "is going to >>>> be tried", "is being tried" etc., not only the preterite (past) "tried". I >>>> suggest "method of effort" instead. >>>> >>>> The keyword for troci is "try", not "effort". All the English >>> translations need to have the keyword in them in some way. This is, by the >>> way, the only objection I have to any proposed changes now or in the future >>> regarding the Smart.fm lists. (Not that I might not have other objections >>> for any particular case, but this is the only objection that would apply to >>> ANY suggestion.) >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> lo se troci something tried => ??? >>>>> >>>>> This seems misleading in that it sounds like "I tried a new food" >>>>> or similar. "something tried for" would be better, but I don't quite >>>>> like it. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Maybe "goal of effort". >>>> >>> >>> See above comment regarding my opinion on this. >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> lo te jimpe a subject of something understood => >>>>> a subject understood about >>>>> >>>>> Trying to make the relation clearer. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Maybe "topic of fact understood". >>>> >>> >>> Personally, I think "[a] topic of fact understood" is actually worse than >>> "a subject of something understood". >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> mu'o mi'e tijlan >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>>> . >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>> >>> .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Lojban Beginners" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --0016363b8510ff05c50485e097e5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you can assume {tu'a ko'a} I think you might lose formal parsabi= lity...

On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 3:31 PM, L= uke Bergen <l= ukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
hmm, would it be = unreasonable for the x2 of nelci/djica to be an event/property BUT in the c= ase where an object (ko'a) is supplied it is assumed to be {tu'a ko= 'a}?


On Wed, May= 5, 2010 at 3:25 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:
I see {djica} in = an abstract way as being similar to why we have all 4 of ri'a, mu'i= , ni'i, and ki'u. The notion that "you want a thing" make= s as much logical sense as "Sally hit you physically because yo= u pulled her hair" in this sense, because whenever you want a thing th= ere is something that you want to happen or be true (usually to "have&= quot; the thing or something related to that).

On the other hand you could make the argument that {nelci} should then = take a {ka} and then you "like <some property(ies)> about <so= mething(s)>", which would be kind of cumbersome.

On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 9:45 AM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com><= /span> wrote:


On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 3:04 AM, tij= lan <jbotijlan@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2 May 2010 01:10, Kevin Reid <kpreid@mac= .com> wrote:
I propose to change the English text for the following gismu place items in= the "Lojban gismu" smart.fm goal as follows:

=A0lo se djica =A0 something desired =3D> a state desired

=A0 =A0To emphasize that lo se djica is not a physical object.

Yes, that's the official definition. But I don'= t see why it should not include a physical object, when {nelci}'s x2 do= es.


=A0
=A0lo se troci =A0 something tried =3D> ???

=A0 =A0This seems misleading in that it sounds like "I tried a new fo= od"
=A0 =A0or similar. "something tried for" would be better, but I = don't quite
=A0 =A0like it.

Maybe "goal of effort&= quot;.

See above comment regardi= ng my opinion on this.

=A0
=A0lo te jimpe =A0 a subject of something understood =3D>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0a subject understood about

=A0 =A0Trying to make the relation clearer.
Maybe "topic of fact understood".

Personally, I think "[a] topic of fact understood" i= s actually worse than "a subject of something understood".


mu'o mi'e tijlan

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--
= mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe d= enpa bu

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