From lojban-beginners+bncCJ2UzZHuDRDYrYjfBBoEyzuYyQ@googlegroups.com Wed May 05 18:10:00 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1O9pb7-0006dU-Sq; Wed, 05 May 2010 18:09:59 -0700 Received: by wyb36 with SMTP id 36sf2740002wyb.16 for ; Wed, 05 May 2010 18:09:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=AaD+p8hNslylQGdZnA5cnCLOVUMeFiG6ZVDXwQhRz+c=; b=cG6hWMcJuFiEiSYAX2/yLEL77LOA/LTwdcrr+UoPN5kDv2PP296AoJYRplIX0ZfEP+ WAd0seLWXsL2Di6ciSduIvnmN/ILFvd6UWPpvEeS0dao9GuyglL/AQUDDPR1Vvi/uU5G 3ZcHSYVbgt+cKvVjutNqhMWvqe3egsTzKhH/o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=xsTExrVKcAZXB9WfLVXkwuLFyA0DstGUkXxgDf418wm33gQtajwbG9GxwVqghPcYYg O7Wzh9zT+z4I9KslBmBFp/ehPCtIT+Kutbb2IBEzzbm0QFIjVjIIjYAki7xwVzkrLH91 aNpRXKKC67Bxd1Zlz76PuVB/SurONciBbf0K0= Received: by 10.223.58.146 with SMTP id g18mr4088864fah.39.1273108184126; Wed, 05 May 2010 18:09:44 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.213.37.73 with SMTP id w9ls1587794ebd.0.p; Wed, 05 May 2010 18:09:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.213.54.137 with SMTP id q9mr23960ebg.17.1273108182630; Wed, 05 May 2010 18:09:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.213.54.137 with SMTP id q9mr23959ebg.17.1273108182600; Wed, 05 May 2010 18:09:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f196.google.com (mail-qy0-f196.google.com [209.85.221.196]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 18si34539ewy.8.2010.05.05.18.09.41; Wed, 05 May 2010 18:09:41 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.196 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.221.196; Received: by mail-qy0-f196.google.com with SMTP id 34so7101066qyk.10 for ; Wed, 05 May 2010 18:09:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.187.208 with SMTP id cx16mr4043385qcb.66.1273108180900; Wed, 05 May 2010 18:09:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.82.11 with HTTP; Wed, 5 May 2010 18:09:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <2035EAA2-54C5-4259-BC7C-497A1CA2A4F5@mac.com> Date: Wed, 5 May 2010 22:09:40 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Proposed change to smart.fm items From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.221.196 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 4:25 PM, Ian Johnson wrote: > I see {djica} in an abstract way as being similar to why we have all 4 of > ri'a, mu'i, ni'i, and ki'u. The notion that "you want a thing" makes as much > logical sense as "Sally hit you physically because you pulled her hair" in > this sense, Although if you pulled hard enough, the pulling may cause her to fall on you and hit you involuntarily. But this is different, because here we are distinguishing two different types of causes. (And we can use "te jalge" if we don't want to say whether the reaction was voluntary or not.) > because whenever you want a thing there is something that you > want to happen or be true (usually to "have" the thing or something related > to that). I don't think the issue here is about "logical sense". Surely you wouldn't object to a lujvo like "tolcaudji" being defined as: ko'a tolcaudji ko'e = ko'a djica lo nu ko'a to'e claxu ko'e Why would that predicate not make logical sense? The issue is just a matter of definition, how broad the meaning of "djica" is, and what kind of things are djica-able. Whenever you see something, there is something happening to it that you see. Whenever you talk about something, there is something about it that you are saying, and so on. That doesn't mean that an object is not something you can see, or talk about, or want. > On the other hand you could make the argument that {nelci} should then take > a {ka} and then you "like about ", which > would be kind of cumbersome. You could make similar arguments for lots of predicates. But why would you? mu'o mi'e xorxes -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.