From lojban-beginners+bncCOjSjrXVGBCDzpHfBBoENs9qZw@googlegroups.com Fri May 07 12:16:34 2010 Received: from mail-pz0-f165.google.com ([209.85.222.165]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1OAT2D-0000zG-4Z; Fri, 07 May 2010 12:16:34 -0700 Received: by pzk37 with SMTP id 37sf357209pzk.25 for ; Fri, 07 May 2010 12:16:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-authentication-results:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=iAfBdiaaAEA89hjohe5KXMOV7jzn/RdPn7L7Qt/3AYw=; b=UyfVewEbTh2pLTV2gae15perDyS+Hu1W6o+x8/+x+Ps1fT1AAEOqUj+49gkH2H//0f CMLJQkUkYI+NQOjiRPr7vhadJAnIgqznovAnB7vvD4OBzjEXi6UvnAcb5XpDmcQIhLqT +kFVHbyZwmbqwLj30Q/xJ8/nO65Fqyibh90wk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-authentication-results :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=CqvFal2ny4hhoXXcMqO4CjMI9Hnueg7J9dkaXVxCeEAiPPBAWRcNGo68KzcihIWRvF Y81ebgFnBmf3CN9fTfYtBfEih8DfgWsKhAd6vqs+yfv/6baCzItt8bpinUw9W2nQM4w0 j9Pf68XxwQpEg+msm4jOLiECPc9DQxRzoBk/c= Received: by 10.115.101.19 with SMTP id d19mr84360wam.27.1273259779979; Fri, 07 May 2010 12:16:19 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.115.135.31 with SMTP id m31ls12715690wan.1.p; Fri, 07 May 2010 12:16:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.31.12 with SMTP id e12mr23790wae.44.1273259772865; Fri, 07 May 2010 12:16:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.31.12 with SMTP id e12mr23789wae.44.1273259772809; Fri, 07 May 2010 12:16:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f51.google.com (mail-vw0-f51.google.com [209.85.212.51]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id k13si1919996waf.5.2010.05.07.12.16.11; Fri, 07 May 2010 12:16:11 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.51 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.51; Received: by mail-vw0-f51.google.com with SMTP id 5so412564vws.10 for ; Fri, 07 May 2010 12:16:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.121.229 with SMTP id i37mr262050vcr.237.1273259771256; Fri, 07 May 2010 12:16:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.94.77 with HTTP; Fri, 7 May 2010 12:16:11 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <2035EAA2-54C5-4259-BC7C-497A1CA2A4F5@mac.com> Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 15:16:11 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Proposed change to smart.fm items From: Luke Bergen To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.51 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636b144b95f5feb048605e4af --001636b144b95f5feb048605e4af Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fair point. I'm not arguing that the two uses of "understand" in english should have the same lojban word. But there *should* be a way of expressin= g the second use (i.e. comprehension). And since {djuno} is already doing {jimpe}'s job and more, why would we double up on the first meaning while the second meaning goes gismu-less? (I'm assuming that there isn't a gismu for "x1 comprehends subject x2". {slabu} is close I guess, but still doesn't cut the mustard, I think). Maybe it just needs a lujvo like {smuju'o} or something. On May 7, 2010 2:56 PM, "Jorge Llamb=EDas" wrote: On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 3:26 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > I really don't like tha... "jimpe" does mean "understand that ...", it just doesn't cover all the meanings of "understand", at least if we take the gi'uste definition seriously. > It seems like the concept of > conprehending a thing would be one of those most basic concepts th... Right, but you do agree that understanding some thing is not the same as understanding some facts about the thing, right? "Understanding a language" can have two meanings, the type of understanding of utterances in the language that a speaker of the language has (knowing how to use the language), and the type of understanding that a linguist has (knowing many facts about the language and how those facts relate to one another). The second is the one expressed by "jimpe fi lo bangu". This is tied with the "know that" vs. "know how to" distinction. If you understand that nouns are not inflected in Chinese, then "do jimpe da lo jugbau", even if you don't understand Chinese. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. ... --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. --001636b144b95f5feb048605e4af Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Fair point. =A0I'm not arguing that the two uses of "understand= " in english should have the same lojban word. =A0But there should<= /i>=A0be a way of expressing the second use (i.e. comprehension). =A0And si= nce {djuno} is already doing {jimpe}'s job and more, why would we doubl= e up on the first meaning while the second meaning goes gismu-less? =A0(I&#= 39;m assuming that there isn't a gismu for "x1 comprehends subject= x2". =A0{slabu} is close I guess, but still doesn't cut the musta= rd, I think). =A0

Maybe it just needs a lujvo like {smuju'o} or something.


<= /p>

On May 7, 2010 2:56 PM, "Jorge Llamb= =EDas" <j= jllambias@gmail.com> wrote:

On Fri= , May 7, 2010 at 3:26 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
> I really don't like tha...

"jimpe" does mean &= quot;understand that ...", it just doesn't cover all the
meanings of "understand", at least if we take the gi'uste def= inition
seriously.


> It seems like the concept of
> co= nprehending a thing would be one of those most basic concepts th...<= /p>Right, but you do agree that understanding some thing is not the same as understanding some facts about the thing, right?

"Understanding a language" can have two meanings, the type of
understanding of utterances in the language that a speaker of the
language has (knowing how to use the language), and the type of
understanding that a linguist has (knowing many facts about the
language and how those facts relate to one another). The second is the
one expressed by "jimpe fi lo bangu". This is tied with the "= ;know
that" vs. "know how to" distinction.

If you understand that nouns are not inflected in Chinese, then "do jimpe da lo jugbau", even if you don't understand Chinese.


mu'o mi'e xorxes

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