From lojban-beginners+bncCOjSjrXVGBDehc7hBBoEcncd6A@googlegroups.com Tue Jul 06 12:24:31 2010 Received: from mail-qw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OWDkn-0005d5-9v; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 12:24:31 -0700 Received: by qwi2 with SMTP id 2sf3953320qwi.16 for ; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 12:24:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=gQ8lfOZ9VAtdUmr2Msf6XSGaJnHnW/RsDKPOfMlPbxE=; b=vV27WYxTrBOU/leSdgxmwJc1642mr3KGgP6sPzkK+1JDUbj1kGKB5wGVZI3si7GfrA QxuiB3+4x+Fck39kvwiothU5WvoOf3Pe0DKAhI98w4RVmXZ29ZYZdxrOfdNDa/peI9Mu 7fuWg3lrweMAdmw99B1TSnHKW4THTca/IE5dc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=eT3DlSqztTDTll4GW40ikYDyuLyQra5auZWADxtEoRqvfkDI2sTGmi4qNLjcr3TTyy XZSyyuoNb3iB9Y9rRBcKVWn+R80eUegL06CxaQKfqrf6ty9dokvR857pOxQPFFmoGEZy 2s5H8snATDaDYmzQ8yWVjzGSUMtkBoSdUtwxQ= Received: by 10.229.220.70 with SMTP id hx6mr617911qcb.27.1278444254550; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 12:24:14 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.210.31 with SMTP id gi31ls3768663qcb.0.p; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 12:24:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.114.93 with SMTP id d29mr284632qaq.18.1278444252306; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 12:24:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.114.93 with SMTP id d29mr284631qaq.18.1278444251673; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 12:24:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f53.google.com (mail-vw0-f53.google.com [209.85.212.53]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id x40si3390887qce.15.2010.07.06.12.24.10; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 12:24:10 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.53 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.53; Received: by mail-vw0-f53.google.com with SMTP id 15so7795632vws.40 for ; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 12:24:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.126.199 with SMTP id d7mr2688655vcs.214.1278444250424; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 12:24:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.165.206 with HTTP; Tue, 6 Jul 2010 12:24:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20100302162057.GA14827@alice.local> <20100706004832.GL23879@digitalkingdom.org> <20100706164224.GA30521@alice.local> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 15:24:10 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: lo do ckiku ma zvati From: Luke Bergen To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.53 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016369fa0b6696766048abcff09 --0016369fa0b6696766048abcff09 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Yes, {cu} is far more common than {ku} but the point is that it's easier to learn that "you sometimes don't need {ku} and here's a handy word {cu}" than "you mostly just need to use {cu}.... well, unless you have an abstraction followed by... well I guess you never really NEED it, but it's useful when you would have otherwise had a whole bunch of terminators" Better to teach the rule and then show shortcuts than to teach shortcuts as the rule. On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 3:17 PM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 3:00 PM, Lindar wrote: > >> Not eliding those terminators makes even the simplest statements seem > >> horribly complicated. I believe that the best way to teach elidable > >> terminators is to teach them in such constructs as they are NOT > elidable. To > >> tell someone "This word means this, but is hardly ever used for this > >> reason", likely tells that person "This isn't important, don't bother > >> remembering it". But to say instead, "This new word here, which means > this, > >> is required in the sentence for this reason", seems to myself to have > more, > >> um, staying power. > > > > I'm sorry, this is a horrible idea. > > In my experience I know this, and all of the newest teaching material > > reflects this. Teach terminators as if they're required, and don't > > even mention that {cu} exists. It's possible to go for months without > > using {cu}, so why teach it until it's necessary (namely when > > sentences start to sound like "kei ku kei ku kei kui *selbri*")? > > > > Which do you think is easier? > > 1. "Yeah, in this one particular circumstance you need this thing > > called "ku" that you just have to use because you can't use "cu" > > there, but you still have to have something there... cos... I said > > so... > > > > 2. "Well, now here's a cute trick. Right here, we don't actually need > > "ku", because it reads the same either way." > > > > Sometimes you need it for random strange reasons with convoluted > > rules, or you learn that you always need it and sometimes it can be > > left off. > > > > For pedagogical reasons, option 2 has proven time and time again to be > > the better alternative that results in much better diction/word-choice/ > > phrasing. Please don't teach or use {cu} until you've gotten well past > > things like abstractions, and even then, don't use it unless it's > > absolutely necessary for the sake of brevity (ex: {.i lo nu mi broda > > be lo brode be lo brodi bei lo brodo be lo brodu cu co'e} instead of > > {.i lo nu mi broda be lo brode be lo brodi ku bei lo brodo be lo brodu > > ku be'o ku be'o ku be'o ku kei ku co'e}). > > > > Really? You think avoiding "cu" is better than avoiding "ku"? My > Berenstain Bears has 49 "cu"'s, and only 16 "ku"s, so you better darn > well know what cu means before you read this beginner book. > > -gejyspa > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --0016369fa0b6696766048abcff09 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, {cu} is far more common than {ku} but the point is that it's easie= r to learn that "you sometimes don't need {ku} and here's a ha= ndy word {cu}" than "you mostly just need to use {cu}.... well, u= nless you have an abstraction followed by... well I guess you never really = NEED it, but it's useful when you would have otherwise had a whole bunc= h of terminators"

Better to teach the rule and then show shortcuts than to tea= ch shortcuts as the rule.

On Tue, Jul 6, = 2010 at 3:17 PM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 3:= 00 PM, Lindar <lindarthebard@= yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Not eliding those terminat= ors makes even the simplest statements seem
>> horribly complicated. I believe that the best way to teach elidabl= e
>> terminators is to teach them in such constructs as they are NOT el= idable. To
>> tell someone "This word means this, but is hardly ever used f= or this
>> reason", likely tells that person "This isn't import= ant, don't bother
>> remembering it". But to say instead, "This new word here= , which means this,
>> is required in the sentence for this reason", seems to myself= to have more,
>> um, staying power.
>
> I'm sorry, this is a horrible idea.
> In my experience I know this, and all of the newest teaching material<= br> > reflects this. Teach terminators as if they're required, and don&#= 39;t
> even mention that {cu} exists. It's possible to go for months with= out
> using {cu}, so why teach it until it's necessary (namely when
> sentences start to sound like "kei ku kei ku kei kui *selbri*&quo= t;)?
>
> Which do you think is easier?
> 1. "Yeah, in this one particular circumstance you need this thing=
> called "ku" that you just have to use because you can't = use "cu"
> there, but you still have to have something there... cos... I said
> so...
>
> 2. "Well, now here's a cute trick. Right here, we don't a= ctually need
> "ku", because it reads the same either way."
>
> Sometimes you need it for random strange reasons with convoluted
> rules, or you learn that you always need it and sometimes it can be > left off.
>
> For pedagogical reasons, option 2 has proven time and time again to be=
> the better alternative that results in much better diction/word-choice= /
> phrasing. Please don't teach or use {cu} until you've gotten w= ell past
> things like abstractions, and even then, don't use it unless it= 9;s
> absolutely necessary for the sake of brevity (ex: {.i lo nu mi broda > be lo brode be lo brodi bei lo brodo be lo brodu cu co'e} instead = of
> {.i lo nu mi broda be lo brode be lo brodi ku bei lo brodo be lo brodu=
> ku be'o ku be'o ku be'o ku kei ku co'e}).
>

=A0 =A0Really? =A0You think avoiding "cu" is better = than avoiding "ku"? =A0My
Berenstain Bears has 49 "cu"'s, and only 16 "ku"s, = so you better darn
well know what cu means before you read this beginner book.

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 -gejyspa

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