From lojban-beginners+bncCOjSjrXVGBDzis7hBBoEVuMekw@googlegroups.com Tue Jul 06 12:35:29 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OWDvP-0004vo-6u; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 12:35:28 -0700 Received: by qyk30 with SMTP id 30sf5919520qyk.16 for ; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 12:35:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=eji8ZFUosFXeVjuHCA5KkPYeLPUOf83qD+eqM9bqrEw=; b=ab6kd2TdbwQvxKoUgvtlRHeALJ87buTD/nYpMXAaF9OZWPgQlLDFZD4ewaZx5h7X3R yXaKVzxyKhgThtuvGWF+qLnaG9qbhVUVCSe0YYV8JLUj2rkJEm+0WzH1+k0dOAI9FpO8 aG9Gy7owA5h79nL4iaQ+u6A1Pdlgea+zxcix4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=mQV0sMRvXRJUZ19gJGXZSQ2A0XyABNk5OLAL7ZtG8gYiF929eoifZ0QofN8U8EK7+1 mssgXY4YrhuKcLJOxie9UYcQ3le49424z1h9XCFlKrFRJCqEdLNF/NTOt1OtwXhjjhzZ 2pmdrgVrgPDJW6ChOoPfLALrvEfzOD6+qCCr4= Received: by 10.229.85.143 with SMTP id o15mr632605qcl.20.1278444915123; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 12:35:15 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.248.75 with SMTP id mf11ls1890405qcb.1.p; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 12:35:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.3.3 with SMTP id 3mr46141qal.1.1278444913186; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 12:35:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.3.3 with SMTP id 3mr46140qal.1.1278444913136; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 12:35:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f44.google.com (mail-vw0-f44.google.com [209.85.212.44]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id j8si3396698qcu.14.2010.07.06.12.35.12; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 12:35:12 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.44 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.44; Received: by mail-vw0-f44.google.com with SMTP id 14so5897463vws.3 for ; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 12:35:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.62.72 with SMTP id w8mr2756467vch.61.1278444910769; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 12:35:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.165.206 with HTTP; Tue, 6 Jul 2010 12:35:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20100706192801.GC1443@digitalkingdom.org> References: <20100302162057.GA14827@alice.local> <20100706004832.GL23879@digitalkingdom.org> <20100706164224.GA30521@alice.local> <20100706192801.GC1443@digitalkingdom.org> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 15:35:10 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: lo do ckiku ma zvati From: Luke Bergen To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.44 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e0cb4e887811c575ab048abd26e2 --e0cb4e887811c575ab048abd26e2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I see what you're saying. If I were learning french because I was going to france I'd want to know how to say "where is the bathroom" and "how much is that" etc... But if I was learning because I wanted to learn the actual language and not "just get by" then I'd want to learn the "real thing" with all the messy grammar attached. Maybe it's just my software background but nothing seems more natural to me than "some stuff other stuff ". And leaving off terminators in teaching just seems sloppy and possibly an expensive lesson down the line for the learner. All in the name of brevity. On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 3:28 PM, Robin Lee Powell < rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote: > On Tue, Jul 06, 2010 at 03:24:10PM -0400, Luke Bergen wrote: > > Yes, {cu} is far more common than {ku} but the point is that it's > > easier to learn that "you sometimes don't need {ku} and here's a > > handy word {cu}" than "you mostly just need to use {cu}.... well, > > unless you have an abstraction followed by... well I guess you > > never really NEED it, but it's useful when you would have > > otherwise had a whole bunch of terminators" > > > > Better to teach the rule and then show shortcuts than to teach > > shortcuts as the rule. > > If that was all it was, I would agree, but you also need to teach > the requirement for {vau} and {kei} and {ku'o} and how to order them > and on and on and on. > > Or you could just say "put {cu} in front of all your selbri. you > don't know how to talk about more than one event or relative clause > per sentence yet", and that will give a beginner the abillity to say > 90% of normal "Where is the bathroom?" sentences, and you're done. > > -Robin > > -- > http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. > Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot > is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false" > is "na nei". My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/ > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --e0cb4e887811c575ab048abd26e2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I see what you're saying. =A0If I were learning french because I was go= ing to france I'd want to know how to say "where is the bathroom&q= uot; and "how much is that" etc...

But if I wa= s learning because I wanted to learn the actual language and not "just= get by" then I'd want to learn the "real thing" with al= l the messy grammar=A0attached.

Maybe it's just my software background but nothing = seems more natural to me than "<opening clause>some stuff <ne= sted clause> other stuff </nested clause> </opening clause>&= quot;. =A0And leaving off terminators in teaching just seems sloppy and pos= sibly an expensive lesson down the line for the learner. =A0All in the name= of brevity.

On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 3:28 PM, Robin Lee Po= well <r= lpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
On Tue, Jul 06, 2010 at 03:24:10PM -0400, Luke Bergen wro= te:
> Yes, {cu} is far more common than {ku} but the point is that it's<= br> > easier to learn that "you sometimes don't need {ku} and here&= #39;s a
> handy word {cu}" than "you mostly just need to use {cu}.... = well,
> unless you have an abstraction followed by... well I guess you
> never really NEED it, but it's useful when you would have
> otherwise had a whole bunch of terminators"
>
> Better to teach the rule and then show shortcuts than to teach
> shortcuts as the rule.

If that was all it was, I would agree, but you also need to teach
the requirement for {vau} and {kei} and {ku'o} and how to order them and on and on and on.

Or you could just say "put {cu} in front of all your selbri. =A0you don't know how to talk about more than one event or relative clause
per sentence yet", and that will give a beginner the abillity to say 90% of normal "Where is the bathroom?" sentences, and you're = done.

-Robin

--
http://singinst.org/= : =A0Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
Lojban (http://www.loj= ban.org/): The language in which "this parrot
is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this senten= ce is false"
is "na nei". =A0 My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/
--
You received this message because y= ou are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.<= br> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.
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