From lojban-beginners+bncCK30vq5WEMGPz-EEGgTF0uvr@googlegroups.com Tue Jul 06 17:18:23 2010 Received: from mail-pv0-f189.google.com ([74.125.83.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OWILD-0002Y8-4Q; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 17:18:22 -0700 Received: by pvg3 with SMTP id 3sf1230544pvg.16 for ; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 17:18:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:date:from:to:subject:message-id :references:mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-disposition; bh=+VCjGmI9DOwEge029cG+FsKRngGhRYo+4swg687zDsI=; b=UlaQFcjEucUjfgUQ3PUkfPdXRINnACepp8tjnZ/n2CNluVZAWolcPCJzcQmJ4cwuyx fwvntbrMLYb7FLwU7WXQprtqSTOgFSWnuKFswT6TKWEGmimWW7zAcXzcZr8oQqJ1mZVT o3I50mbrui3XQLiqEsCeDrMt1ZnLP9GPk6kug= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-disposition; b=uy6tWzCfJw25GqbH9oznKnN0IsjBygtaExE7oAn4a6RP0Nl61Pe9SATvhjA1pPq/rI SUl4y/3qVhwTPWG4oWTUqFR3KhWn6zhmG1fLeTDXW1ofXYP5Q82uh4TJSjXNjDytxxPL JaCd3fUy905KAO+Wemdgl4C1FPcil2BZ28vIk= Received: by 10.142.61.21 with SMTP id j21mr357221wfa.40.1278461889683; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 17:18:09 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.143.86.1 with SMTP id o1ls509469wfl.3.p; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 17:18:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.215.6 with SMTP id n6mr1128645wfg.40.1278461889000; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 17:18:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.215.6 with SMTP id n6mr1128644wfg.40.1278461888977; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 17:18:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org (chain.digitalkingdom.org [64.81.66.169]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id b9si5333558rvf.6.2010.07.06.17.18.08; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 17:18:08 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org designates 64.81.66.169 as permitted sender) client-ip=64.81.66.169; Received: from rlpowell by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OWIL1-0002Xm-SF for lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 17:18:08 -0700 Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 17:18:07 -0700 From: Robin Lee Powell To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: lo do ckiku ma zvati Message-ID: <20100707001807.GI1443@digitalkingdom.org> References: <20100302162057.GA14827@alice.local> <20100706004832.GL23879@digitalkingdom.org> <20100706164224.GA30521@alice.local> <20100706193633.GE1443@digitalkingdom.org> <20100706194349.GE31169@alice.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-Original-Sender: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org designates 64.81.66.169 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline On Tue, Jul 06, 2010 at 05:06:25PM -0700, Lindar wrote: > It's been proven through a lot of teaching that terminators are > easier to learn when {cu} is introduced later, and for 90% of > examples, one doesn't even need it unless an abstraction is in the > x1 place. Please don't use "proven" unless you have actual evidence. I see assertions with nothing to back them up, from you and everyone else in this thread (including me, although I'll be happy to give you a list of people who can hold a comfortable verbal convo in Lojban and learned the opposite way if you like). > In fact, most of the new generation -does- speak that way Who would these people be, and how good are they? > Besides, even if we -are- talking about brevity, it's the same > thing. There's no difference in length between {.i lo broda ku > brode} and {.i lo broda cu brode}, It's the longer cases I'm worried about; poi and nu and such. > but the former develops better habits later on. I *utterly* disagree with that bit. It encourages people to say things like {le nu broda kei ku brode}, which I consider a very bad habit indeed. Now, having said that, people have been suggesting in IRC that thinking of sumti as bound on both sides (by le and ku) leads to a better understanding of where to put the terminators when they're actually needed, which is certainly interesting. -Robin -- http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false" is "na nei". My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.