From lojban-beginners+bncCML0xpmUARCx29LhBBoE4kQyvQ@googlegroups.com Wed Jul 07 09:39:29 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OWXec-0003s2-RD; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 09:39:29 -0700 Received: by gyg4 with SMTP id 4sf13864496gyg.16 for ; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 09:39:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=J/eL/IaewfGUMWj1bkY2/eFGqAAfWpWRiakoBOot8Mc=; b=sd0qN6x+p9nQM6G1Y0GXYm1kNhbSAtjHFLQoULvulPDxyPXFfca664woM3oyNN5pkx NpI5uUJYqJPQY52s+shd4MXZOncRLppUxta8vfHMhqU6mMzTCvWrhUGPxiJkT+mzAf5b DHJ5AYZKh+ZM55J45HWwRWkwplIvyiAO7UPsA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=oXi4nAmVV7F23+NHDOgoK+bK2kipW2aCKxJPvWvld/bKN84t1X6AR/x4+kH0C0pkjb OnXiAy0JdWav5uJ4Kd1ZdSFqt/t4DtunsdR7zjLh/68Pl/89V8XfynMQ9IoWAyka5Rix uqyFIZ7p1/W+GLMel73CgBEHCBivP8b3eGe4Q= Received: by 10.100.23.10 with SMTP id 10mr673732anw.36.1278520753156; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 09:39:13 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.11.8 with SMTP id o8ls8243156ani.6.p; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 09:39:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.175.10 with SMTP id c10mr5310108anp.46.1278520752241; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 09:39:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.175.10 with SMTP id c10mr5310106anp.46.1278520752185; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 09:39:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gy0-f180.google.com (mail-gy0-f180.google.com [209.85.160.180]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id b6si5296776ani.1.2010.07.07.09.39.11; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 09:39:11 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.180 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.180; Received: by mail-gy0-f180.google.com with SMTP id 13so6344952gyg.11 for ; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 09:39:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.72.95 with SMTP id l31mr3376102qaj.112.1278520750858; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 09:39:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.217.140 with HTTP; Wed, 7 Jul 2010 09:39:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20100302162057.GA14827@alice.local> <20100706004832.GL23879@digitalkingdom.org> <20100706164224.GA30521@alice.local> <20100706193633.GE1443@digitalkingdom.org> <20100706194349.GE31169@alice.local> <20100707002416.GA25062@sdf.lonestar.org> <20100707043751.GM1443@digitalkingdom.org> Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 12:39:10 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: lo do ckiku ma zvati From: Ian Johnson To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.180 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00c09f9b0bfc316220048acecff8 --00c09f9b0bfc316220048acecff8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 {cu} is in chapter 2; terminators are in chapter 6. mu'o mi'e latros. On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 8:04 AM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > One thing I'm curious about. I never went through the L4B, but is > what you are saying here is that the concept of terminators isn't even > _introduced_ in L4B until much later? If so, I think that is just > wrong. I learned lojban by simply reading the CLL from beginning to > end (and asking lots of questions, while trying to dodge the > curmudgeons, in #lojban) That introduced terminators right at the > very beginnning, and at every step, explaining that most times they > could be elided, and how. So yes, I always thought of the concept of > e.g. a LE sumti being LE broda KU, but with KU usually elidable. > > --gejyspa > > > On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 12:37 AM, Robin Lee Powell > wrote: > > I'm still waiting for someone to come out and say "I was taught that > > way, it took about that long, and now I can hold a conversation in > > Lojban". > > > > -Robin > > > > On Tue, Jul 06, 2010 at 10:52:39PM -0400, Luke Bergen wrote: > >> So one argument I keep hearing for {cu} first and {ku} later is > >> that it's much faster to learn "street lojban" and then learn the > >> technicalities of elision and whatnot. But from what lindar was > >> saying, it sounds like "the long/not-street" way of teaching (ku > >> then cu) takes about 30-90 minutes. "It gets newbies speaking in > >> full sentences faster" seems like a moot point when the > >> alternative (and better IMO) way only takes about an hour to > >> learn. > >> > >> On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 10:30 PM, Ian Johnson > wrote: > >> > >> > My two cents to all of this: > >> > I'm newish but relatively comfortable. I came into the community after > >> > going through LFB (I can't guarantee I was done when I first came, but > I was > >> > close). I worked some of the exercises in the chapters (maybe up to > chapter > >> > 7 or so) but eventually I found myself trying to hack sentences > together in > >> > a nonlinear fashion, and so I used it as a reference basically, until > I felt > >> > comfortable enough and had sufficiently technical questions that I > thought I > >> > should join the IRC and mailing lists. > >> > > >> > So I learned {cu} first, terminators second. I didn't actually like > this in > >> > the end (obviously at the time I didn't know any better). I think > putting > >> > off terminators made them seem kinda intimidating. I got them, but > they were > >> > one of the things that gave me more hesitation. On the other hand, I > think > >> > that filling in every elidable terminator, and even more so using > >> > terminators AND {cu}, in sample sentences directed at beginners, is a > >> > horrible idea, much worse than starting with {cu}*. The sentences get > >> > horribly complicated, and a lot of the elidable terminators are very > very > >> > rarely actually useful. I know a circumstance when {vau} is useful > having to > >> > do with a certain construction involving GIhA but it's a pretty hard > >> > circumstance to run into, for example. And in this example, to me, > that > >> > means that it is silly to teach {vau} to a newbie. If there were even > >> > remotely common circumstances when you needed it, it would be great to > teach > >> > it, but with {vau} you have to go to quite a bit of effort to > construct a > >> > relevant example, let alone incorporate a relevant example into a > discussion > >> > of an actual topic. > >> > > >> > So start with {ku}. When you get to abstractors, teach {kei}. When you > get > >> > to {be}, teach {be'o}. When you get to {poi}/{noi}, teach {ku'o}. > Around the > >> > time when you start needing two terminators (probably around the time > that > >> > you get to abstractors), mention that there's a faster way that is > usually > >> > used, and maybe teach it at that time. Or maybe wait until you run > into > >> > three terminators (maybe around the time you hit {be} and then attempt > to > >> > synthesize knowledge by putting sumti with internal sumti inside > >> > abstractors). But in short, don't teach {cu} first, imo. It can do too > many > >> > things to be taught that early on, and so a person that starts with it > will > >> > learn the ways that it fails in a much more hackish way, I think; by > >> > contrast, {ku}, {kei}, etc. all do pretty much one thing, and so if > they are > >> > the foundation and {cu} is the icing, there won't tend to be confusion > so > >> > much as inefficiency. (And people have already shown examples of {cu} > >> > causing inefficiency). > >> > > >> > This all assumes the "learning Lojban to learn it, not to use it ASAP" > >> > hypothesis stated above, of course, which I think is probably pretty > good > >> > here. This is also all based on conjecture, not data. > >> > > >> > *I think that sentence is ungrammatical but I don't know how to fix > it, > >> > sorry. > >> > > >> > mu'oi mi'e latros. > >> > > >> > On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 8:24 PM, Minimiscience < > minimiscience@gmail.com>wrote: > >> > > >> >> de'i li 06 pi'e 07 pi'e 2010 la'o fy. Lindar .fy. cusku zoi > skamyxatra. > >> >> > ... and then you start seeing confused newbies that don't actually > know > >> >> how > >> >> > to terminate that say things like {mi cu dunda zo'e zo'e} (I have > >> >> actually > >> >> > seen stuff like this). > >> >> .skamyxatra > >> >> > >> >> "{mi cu dunda}" is actually perfectly grammatically correct. (It's > >> >> unnecessarily verbose and arguably bad style, but if that's your sole > >> >> objection > >> >> to it, you might want to look in the mirror.) "{cu}" means "the > {bridi}'s > >> >> main > >> >> {selbri} starts here," which implies the termination of anything > before > >> >> it, > >> >> rather than termination being the primary concept and the main > {selbri} > >> >> aspect > >> >> secondary. The only (non-obvious) grammatical restriction on "{cu}" > is > >> >> that it > >> >> must be preceded by at least one term in the sentence, where a "term" > can > >> >> be a > >> >> {sumti} (including descriptor {sumti} and pro-{sumti}), a termset, a > >> >> {sumti} > >> >> tagged with a {sumti tcita}, a bare BAI KU, a NA KU, or even a FA KU. > >> >> > >> >> mu'omi'e .kamymecraijun. > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> lo paroi cumki cu rere'u cumki > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >> >> "Lojban Beginners" group. > >> >> To post to this group, send email to > lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > >> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > > > >> >> . > >> >> For more options, visit this group at > >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > >> >> > >> >> > >> > -- > >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >> > "Lojban Beginners" group. > >> > To post to this group, send email to > lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > > > >> > . > >> > For more options, visit this group at > >> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > >> > > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. > >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > >> For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > >> > > > > -- > > http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. > > Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot > > is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false" > > is "na nei". My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/ > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --00c09f9b0bfc316220048acecff8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable {cu} is in chapter 2; terminators are in chapter 6.

mu'o mi'= e latros.

On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 8:04 AM,= Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
=A0One thing I&#= 39;m curious about. =A0I never went through the L4B, but is
what you are saying here is that the concept of terminators isn't even<= br> _introduced_ in L4B =A0until much later? =A0If so, I think that is just
wrong. =A0 =A0I learned lojban by simply reading the CLL from beginning to<= br> end (and asking lots of questions, while trying to dodge the
curmudgeons, in #lojban) =A0That introduced terminators right at the
very beginnning, and at every step, explaining that most times they
could be elided, and how. =A0So yes, I always thought of the concept of
e.g. a LE sumti being LE broda KU, but with KU usually elidable.

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa


On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 12:37 AM, Robin Lee Powell
<rlpowell@digitalkingdom.= org> wrote:
> I'm still waiting for someone to come out and say "I was taug= ht that
> way, it took about that long, and now I can hold a conversation in
> Lojban".
>
> -Robin
>
> On Tue, Jul 06, 2010 at 10:52:39PM -0400, Luke Bergen wrote:
>> So one argument I keep hearing for {cu} first and {ku} later is >> that it's much faster to learn "street lojban" and t= hen learn the
>> technicalities of elision and whatnot. =A0But from what lindar was=
>> saying, it sounds like "the long/not-street" way of teac= hing (ku
>> then cu) takes about 30-90 minutes. "It gets newbies speaking= in
>> full sentences faster" seems like a moot point when the
>> alternative (and better IMO) way only takes about an hour to
>> learn.
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 10:30 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > My two cents to all of this:
>> > I'm newish but relatively comfortable. I came into the co= mmunity after
>> > going through LFB (I can't guarantee I was done when I fi= rst came, but I was
>> > close). I worked some of the exercises in the chapters (maybe= up to chapter
>> > 7 or so) but eventually I found myself trying to hack sentenc= es together in
>> > a nonlinear fashion, and so I used it as a reference basicall= y, until I felt
>> > comfortable enough and had sufficiently technical questions t= hat I thought I
>> > should join the IRC and mailing lists.
>> >
>> > So I learned {cu} first, terminators second. I didn't act= ually like this in
>> > the end (obviously at the time I didn't know any better).= I think putting
>> > off terminators made them seem kinda intimidating. I got them= , but they were
>> > one of the things that gave me more hesitation. On the other = hand, I think
>> > that filling in every elidable terminator, and even more so u= sing
>> > terminators AND {cu}, in sample sentences directed at beginne= rs, is a
>> > horrible idea, much worse than starting with {cu}*. The sente= nces get
>> > horribly complicated, and a lot of the elidable terminators a= re very very
>> > rarely actually useful. I know a circumstance when {vau} is u= seful having to
>> > do with a certain construction involving GIhA but it's a = pretty hard
>> > circumstance to run into, for example. And in this example, t= o me, that
>> > means that it is silly to teach {vau} to a newbie. If there w= ere even
>> > remotely common circumstances when you needed it, it would be= great to teach
>> > it, but with {vau} you have to go to quite a bit of effort to= construct a
>> > relevant example, let alone incorporate a relevant example in= to a discussion
>> > of an actual topic.
>> >
>> > So start with {ku}. When you get to abstractors, teach {kei}.= When you get
>> > to {be}, teach {be'o}. When you get to {poi}/{noi}, teach= {ku'o}. Around the
>> > time when you start needing two terminators (probably around = the time that
>> > you get to abstractors), mention that there's a faster wa= y that is usually
>> > used, and maybe teach it at that time. Or maybe wait until yo= u run into
>> > three terminators (maybe around the time you hit {be} and the= n attempt to
>> > synthesize knowledge by putting sumti with internal sumti ins= ide
>> > abstractors). But in short, don't teach {cu} first, imo. = It can do too many
>> > things to be taught that early on, and so a person that start= s with it will
>> > learn the ways that it fails in a much more hackish way, I th= ink; by
>> > contrast, {ku}, {kei}, etc. all do pretty much one thing, and= so if they are
>> > the foundation and {cu} is the icing, there won't tend to= be confusion so
>> > much as inefficiency. (And people have already shown examples= of {cu}
>> > causing inefficiency).
>> >
>> > This all assumes the "learning Lojban to learn it, not t= o use it ASAP"
>> > hypothesis stated above, of course, which I think is probably= pretty good
>> > here. This is also all based on conjecture, not data.
>> >
>> > *I think that sentence is ungrammatical but I don't know = how to fix it,
>> > sorry.
>> >
>> > mu'oi mi'e latros.
>> >
>> > On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 8:24 PM, Minimiscience <minimiscience@gmail.com>wrote:
>> >
>> >> de'i li 06 pi'e 07 pi'e 2010 la'o fy. Lin= dar .fy. cusku zoi skamyxatra.
>> >> > ... and then you start seeing confused newbies that = don't actually know
>> >> how
>> >> > to terminate that say things like {mi cu dunda zo= 9;e zo'e} (I have
>> >> actually
>> >> > seen stuff like this).
>> >> .skamyxatra
>> >>
>> >> "{mi cu dunda}" is actually perfectly grammatic= ally correct. =A0(It's
>> >> unnecessarily verbose and arguably bad style, but if that= 's your sole
>> >> objection
>> >> to it, you might want to look in the mirror.) =A0"{c= u}" means "the {bridi}'s
>> >> main
>> >> {selbri} starts here," which implies the termination= of anything before
>> >> it,
>> >> rather than termination being the primary concept and the= main {selbri}
>> >> aspect
>> >> secondary. =A0The only (non-obvious) grammatical restrict= ion on "{cu}" is
>> >> that it
>> >> must be preceded by at least one term in the sentence, wh= ere a "term" can
>> >> be a
>> >> {sumti} (including descriptor {sumti} and pro-{sumti}), a= termset, a
>> >> {sumti}
>> >> tagged with a {sumti tcita}, a bare BAI KU, a NA KU, or e= ven a FA KU.
>> >>
>> >> mu'omi'e .kamymecraijun.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> lo paroi cumki cu rere'u cumki
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to t= he Google Groups
>> >> "Lojban Beginners" group.
>> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
>> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<lojban-beginners%2= Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
>> >> .
>> >> For more options, visit this group at
>> >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginner= s?hl=3Den.
>> >>
>> >>
>> > =A0--
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle Groups
>> > "Lojban Beginners" group.
>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<lojban-beginners%2Buns= ubscribe@googlegroups.com>
>> > .
>> > For more options, visit this group at
>> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl= =3Den.
>> >
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe= @googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.goo= gle.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.
>>
>
> --
> http://singinst.org= / : =A0Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
> Lojban (http://ww= w.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot
> is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this s= entence is false"
> is "na nei". =A0 My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/<= /a>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "Lojban Beginners" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@goo= glegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.= com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.
>
>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.


--
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