From lojban-beginners+bncCK30vq5WEMyE0-EEGgS9mLnI@googlegroups.com Wed Jul 07 11:07:39 2010 Received: from mail-pv0-f189.google.com ([74.125.83.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OWZ1h-0000mE-B4; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 11:07:39 -0700 Received: by pvg3 with SMTP id 3sf1525268pvg.16 for ; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 11:07:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:date:from:to:subject:message-id :references:mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-disposition :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Qwz+ANF68OQeIv5vSweoVTCvTWlprSTwcMHidNHuhcE=; b=hLKLrAUXrrytvTg8OZvFREOHOWIBD8/iBU3t4GUSHNPY2h6MrMNauCzZ0diJgCoRCD 2ID9QU/5RFNJvkaG4fSCZ7uwhsw2j6L9eYntiZGesrMSlOZ28jaJLHy9hxFoARL5zfow HxFUgQ07pjRZlZez/kPtrHRsNGEa3EgDSPPuw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-disposition :content-transfer-encoding; b=VizVjsnvxUJ6Am9Jb8CMmtd+tEFZOSKttAZt1wUBHBQw904+D+Y0p7uvscHsv/9oVr EhRiKO6cHH2IRfSvsDReUCcu7+Zd46pOkE0edoC1vYqPAy6FxtBk7CXj9BvtXXiwUchK 8wPFUDjjAbaF8rrdjDs/CHz2LVKIG4JqvQV4k= Received: by 10.142.250.6 with SMTP id x6mr474909wfh.28.1278526028172; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 11:07:08 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.143.21.24 with SMTP id y24ls1082864wfi.1.p; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 11:07:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.172.15 with SMTP id u15mr1444198wfe.41.1278526027123; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 11:07:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.172.15 with SMTP id u15mr1444196wfe.41.1278526026961; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 11:07:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org (chain.digitalkingdom.org [64.81.66.169]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id h18si6204397wfg.2.2010.07.07.11.07.06; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 11:07:06 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org designates 64.81.66.169 as permitted sender) client-ip=64.81.66.169; Received: from rlpowell by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OWZ1U-0000cW-Vn for lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; Wed, 07 Jul 2010 11:07:05 -0700 Date: Wed, 7 Jul 2010 11:07:04 -0700 From: Robin Lee Powell To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: lo do ckiku ma zvati Message-ID: <20100707180704.GP1443@digitalkingdom.org> References: <20100706004832.GL23879@digitalkingdom.org> <20100706164224.GA30521@alice.local> <20100706193633.GE1443@digitalkingdom.org> <20100706194349.GE31169@alice.local> <20100707002416.GA25062@sdf.lonestar.org> <20100707043751.GM1443@digitalkingdom.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-Original-Sender: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org designates 64.81.66.169 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have no idea about L4B, but the CLL doesn't introduce terminators (except {cu}) until chapter 5 as far as I can tell; where are you seeing them? -Robin On Wed, Jul 07, 2010 at 08:04:05AM -0400, Michael Turniansky wrote: > One thing I'm curious about. I never went through the L4B, but is > what you are saying here is that the concept of terminators isn't > even _introduced_ in L4B until much later? If so, I think that > is just wrong. I learned lojban by simply reading the CLL from > beginning to end (and asking lots of questions, while trying to > dodge the curmudgeons, in #lojban) That introduced terminators > right at the very beginnning, and at every step, explaining that > most times they could be elided, and how. So yes, I always > thought of the concept of e.g. a LE sumti being LE broda KU, but > with KU usually elidable. >=20 > --gejyspa >=20 >=20 > On Wed, Jul 7, 2010 at 12:37 AM, Robin Lee Powell > wrote: > > I'm still waiting for someone to come out and say "I was taught that > > way, it took about that long, and now I can hold a conversation in > > Lojban". > > > > -Robin > > > > On Tue, Jul 06, 2010 at 10:52:39PM -0400, Luke Bergen wrote: > >> So one argument I keep hearing for {cu} first and {ku} later is > >> that it's much faster to learn "street lojban" and then learn the > >> technicalities of elision and whatnot. =A0But from what lindar was > >> saying, it sounds like "the long/not-street" way of teaching (ku > >> then cu) takes about 30-90 minutes. "It gets newbies speaking in > >> full sentences faster" seems like a moot point when the > >> alternative (and better IMO) way only takes about an hour to > >> learn. > >> > >> On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 10:30 PM, Ian Johnson = wrote: > >> > >> > My two cents to all of this: > >> > I'm newish but relatively comfortable. I came into the community aft= er > >> > going through LFB (I can't guarantee I was done when I first came, b= ut I was > >> > close). I worked some of the exercises in the chapters (maybe up to = chapter > >> > 7 or so) but eventually I found myself trying to hack sentences toge= ther in > >> > a nonlinear fashion, and so I used it as a reference basically, unti= l I felt > >> > comfortable enough and had sufficiently technical questions that I t= hought I > >> > should join the IRC and mailing lists. > >> > > >> > So I learned {cu} first, terminators second. I didn't actually like = this in > >> > the end (obviously at the time I didn't know any better). I think pu= tting > >> > off terminators made them seem kinda intimidating. I got them, but t= hey were > >> > one of the things that gave me more hesitation. On the other hand, I= think > >> > that filling in every elidable terminator, and even more so using > >> > terminators AND {cu}, in sample sentences directed at beginners, is = a > >> > horrible idea, much worse than starting with {cu}*. The sentences ge= t > >> > horribly complicated, and a lot of the elidable terminators are very= very > >> > rarely actually useful. I know a circumstance when {vau} is useful h= aving to > >> > do with a certain construction involving GIhA but it's a pretty hard > >> > circumstance to run into, for example. And in this example, to me, t= hat > >> > means that it is silly to teach {vau} to a newbie. If there were eve= n > >> > remotely common circumstances when you needed it, it would be great = to teach > >> > it, but with {vau} you have to go to quite a bit of effort to constr= uct a > >> > relevant example, let alone incorporate a relevant example into a di= scussion > >> > of an actual topic. > >> > > >> > So start with {ku}. When you get to abstractors, teach {kei}. When y= ou get > >> > to {be}, teach {be'o}. When you get to {poi}/{noi}, teach {ku'o}. Ar= ound the > >> > time when you start needing two terminators (probably around the tim= e that > >> > you get to abstractors), mention that there's a faster way that is u= sually > >> > used, and maybe teach it at that time. Or maybe wait until you run i= nto > >> > three terminators (maybe around the time you hit {be} and then attem= pt to > >> > synthesize knowledge by putting sumti with internal sumti inside > >> > abstractors). But in short, don't teach {cu} first, imo. It can do t= oo many > >> > things to be taught that early on, and so a person that starts with = it will > >> > learn the ways that it fails in a much more hackish way, I think; by > >> > contrast, {ku}, {kei}, etc. all do pretty much one thing, and so if = they are > >> > the foundation and {cu} is the icing, there won't tend to be confusi= on so > >> > much as inefficiency. (And people have already shown examples of {cu= } > >> > causing inefficiency). > >> > > >> > This all assumes the "learning Lojban to learn it, not to use it ASA= P" > >> > hypothesis stated above, of course, which I think is probably pretty= good > >> > here. This is also all based on conjecture, not data. > >> > > >> > *I think that sentence is ungrammatical but I don't know how to fix = it, > >> > sorry. > >> > > >> > mu'oi mi'e latros. > >> > > >> > On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 8:24 PM, Minimiscience wrote: > >> > > >> >> de'i li 06 pi'e 07 pi'e 2010 la'o fy. Lindar .fy. cusku zoi skamyxa= tra. > >> >> > ... and then you start seeing confused newbies that don't actuall= y know > >> >> how > >> >> > to terminate that say things like {mi cu dunda zo'e zo'e} (I have > >> >> actually > >> >> > seen stuff like this). > >> >> .skamyxatra > >> >> > >> >> "{mi cu dunda}" is actually perfectly grammatically correct. =A0(It= 's > >> >> unnecessarily verbose and arguably bad style, but if that's your so= le > >> >> objection > >> >> to it, you might want to look in the mirror.) =A0"{cu}" means "the = {bridi}'s > >> >> main > >> >> {selbri} starts here," which implies the termination of anything be= fore > >> >> it, > >> >> rather than termination being the primary concept and the main {sel= bri} > >> >> aspect > >> >> secondary. =A0The only (non-obvious) grammatical restriction on "{c= u}" is > >> >> that it > >> >> must be preceded by at least one term in the sentence, where a "ter= m" can > >> >> be a > >> >> {sumti} (including descriptor {sumti} and pro-{sumti}), a termset, = a > >> >> {sumti} > >> >> tagged with a {sumti tcita}, a bare BAI KU, a NA KU, or even a FA K= U. > >> >> > >> >> mu'omi'e .kamymecraijun. > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> lo paroi cumki cu rere'u cumki > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google = Groups > >> >> "Lojban Beginners" group. > >> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.= com. > >> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > >> >> . > >> >> For more options, visit this group at > >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > >> >> > >> >> > >> > =A0-- > >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google G= roups > >> > "Lojban Beginners" group. > >> > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.c= om. > >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > >> > . > >> > For more options, visit this group at > >> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > >> > > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "Lojban Beginners" group. > >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com= . > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubsc= ribe@googlegroups.com. > >> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/l= ojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > >> > > > > -- > > http://singinst.org/ : =A0Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. > > Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot > > is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false" > > is "na nei". =A0 My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/ > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps "Lojban Beginners" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscr= ibe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lo= jban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > > > >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscrib= e@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an-beginners?hl=3Den. >=20 --=20 http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false" is "na nei". My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/ --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.