From lojban-beginners+bncCMHEmaCOBhDq1s3hBBoEUH48Cg@googlegroups.com Tue Jul 06 10:44:38 2010 Received: from mail-pw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.160.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OWCBv-0004oW-8L; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 10:44:38 -0700 Received: by pwi10 with SMTP id 10sf2104708pwi.16 for ; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 10:44:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=QpX4rXT4dNTE2fV86RNGEU87lEwBlkyq0UxSKCGdR8g=; b=Zx09bjH028KcmI2JDyK+w1orp13GoOn4Nk8IaqlfQonhXsgIL8g+zZKvK+LKsgj3iy FIaTj2Y/ghVkMyQYJH7JkCidBYVI0mri1qDAMfudGXp2V02nfjDIab6s4H1HDpInK7tL wWySMCOqcRAPk0s015mkuPVNhaXd2/2udXXpI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=4qBV5onh/YFBMW86x4e11EErNYnCYbQENLdu2oO2gtxKx2s2DRwHIeNj7NEXVnOjL7 uMDj4pvfLh7lBFx0I479BFk9Joo421cFKRtisoKEowBGIl3uB1k11TSZeb2qPxqY6zV/ sXOrlTS8voqaMyB/MO0r/rC66Mj1nxjgmitGI= Received: by 10.115.99.12 with SMTP id b12mr426548wam.28.1278438250230; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 10:44:10 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.115.38.17 with SMTP id q17ls15343303waj.0.p; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 10:44:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.67.14 with SMTP id p14mr1009965waa.42.1278438249675; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 10:44:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.67.14 with SMTP id p14mr1009963waa.42.1278438249628; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 10:44:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pw0-f53.google.com (mail-pw0-f53.google.com [209.85.160.53]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id r11si5051532waj.4.2010.07.06.10.44.08; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 10:44:08 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.53 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.53; Received: by mail-pw0-f53.google.com with SMTP id 4so3366026pwj.26 for ; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 10:44:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.215.19 with SMTP id n19mr6135989wfg.261.1278438246351; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 10:44:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.191.1 with HTTP; Tue, 6 Jul 2010 10:44:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20100302162057.GA14827@alice.local> <20100706004832.GL23879@digitalkingdom.org> <20100706164224.GA30521@alice.local> Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 11:44:06 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] lo do ckiku ma zvati From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.53 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd327f28b47e1048abb9981 --000e0cd327f28b47e1048abb9981 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think starting out with elidable terminators not elided would probably be confusing to beginners. {lo gerku cu jersi lo ractu} (a) dog (begin selbri) chase (a) rabbit vs {lo gerku ku cu jersi lo ractu ku vau} (a) dog (end sumti) (begin selbri) chase (a) rabbit (end sumti) (end bridi) Not eliding those terminators makes even the simplest statements seem horribly complicated. I believe that the best way to teach elidable terminators is to teach them in such constructs as they are NOT elidable. T= o tell someone "This word means this, but is hardly ever used for this reason", likely tells that person "This isn't important, don't bother remembering it". But to say instead, "This new word here, which means this, is required in the sentence for this reason", seems to myself to have more, um, staying power. 2010/7/6 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 1:42 PM, Alan Post > wrote: > > On Mon, Jul 05, 2010 at 05:48:32PM -0700, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > > >> 4. What's with all the {cu} and {vau}? Seems unnecessarily > >> complicated. > > > > On IRC, I was told (I think by xorxes) that it is standard procedure > > to teach newbies all the elidable terminators and only after > > practicing with them begin to practice without them. > > Definitely not by me. I don't really have any insights as to what is > best for teaching, but text with elidable terminators not elided > always strikes me as very weird. > > > It didn't quite fit my own intuition, but I was trying to adopt the > > best practice we've discovered for teaching Lojban. I'm happy to > > discuss this. It may turn out there isn't concensus on which is > > best. > > That's probably the case. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. --000e0cd327f28b47e1048abb9981 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think starting out with elidable terminators not elided would probably be= confusing to beginners.

{lo gerku cu jersi lo ractu}
(a) dog (be= gin selbri) chase (a) rabbit

=A0vs

{lo gerku ku cu jersi lo r= actu ku vau}
(a) dog (end sumti) (begin selbri) chase (a) rabbit (end sumti) (end bridi)=

Not eliding those terminators makes even the simplest statements se= em horribly complicated. I believe that the best way to teach elidable term= inators is to teach them in such constructs as they are NOT elidable. To te= ll someone "This word means this, but is hardly ever used for this rea= son", likely tells that person "This isn't important, don'= ;t bother remembering it". But to say instead, "This new word her= e, which means this, is required in the sentence for this reason", see= ms to myself to have more, um, staying power.

2010/7/6 Jorge Llamb=EDas = <jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Tue, Jul 6, 2010 at 1:42 PM, Alan Post <alanpost@sunflowerriver.org> wro= te:
> On Mon, Jul 05, 2010 at 05:48:32PM -0700, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
>
>> 4. =A0What's with all the {cu} and {va= u}? =A0Seems unnecessarily
>> complicated.
>
> On IRC, I was told (I think by xorxes) that it is standard procedure > to teach newbies all the elidable terminators and only after
> practicing with them begin to practice without them.

Definitely not by me. I don't really have any insights as to what= is
best for teaching, but text with elidable terminators not elided
always strikes me as very weird.

> It didn't quite fit my own intuition, but I was trying to adopt th= e
> best practice we've discovered for teaching Lojban. =A0I'm hap= py to
> discuss this. =A0It may turn out there isn't concensus on which is=
> best.

That's probably the case.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu
=

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