From lojban-beginners+bncCK30vq5WEO-EzuEEGgSdjPQF@googlegroups.com Tue Jul 06 12:22:52 2010 Received: from mail-pw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.160.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OWDix-0005CV-Cz; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 12:22:52 -0700 Received: by pwi10 with SMTP id 10sf2131047pwi.16 for ; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 12:22:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:date:from:to:subject:message-id :references:mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-disposition; bh=WKhBPAIxg4M2FCPLTHueJHZKAXOuV1gFu4MSa/6+IsQ=; b=ytpSsmABI+8DgEqE/jPQHa1AhfF/VcXY1UqbsXqGOQXD3OXYkyUfL28eWxwlHTiQPB gtmmq3uTZZhYibaOk9hxjQEjBmwh3VcLPIFzT7MhSmmw7FbCmXfAOVB5lt5bX65OO++d jCF6jxA2d5N5J3Vt39PZFBkiBnvoiDTtfU9GM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-disposition; b=n8cSOukO5Tds955PIWHPwVsIteYiXLM3VaydgZEmFdf3RzAKqZjDYiMemv17/ULEVL g0h/BLlCDbOH3/rTbardxFTDEigtsFShj4aAenEaM6Cmwp28sxRygnticEbb6ADMLRfT aSWGcgGqkY5LS30n8771zTpiOf9GqC7zDPHlc= Received: by 10.115.38.30 with SMTP id q30mr444207waj.7.1278444143814; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 12:22:23 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.115.38.17 with SMTP id q17ls15417789waj.0.p; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 12:22:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.157.8 with SMTP id f8mr1069557wfe.15.1278444142654; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 12:22:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.157.8 with SMTP id f8mr1069556wfe.15.1278444142609; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 12:22:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org (chain.digitalkingdom.org [64.81.66.169]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id i10si5147270wfa.5.2010.07.06.12.22.22; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 12:22:22 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org designates 64.81.66.169 as permitted sender) client-ip=64.81.66.169; Received: from rlpowell by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OWDin-0005Bh-42 for lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; Tue, 06 Jul 2010 12:22:21 -0700 Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2010 12:22:21 -0700 From: Robin Lee Powell To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: lo do ckiku ma zvati Message-ID: <20100706192220.GA1443@digitalkingdom.org> References: <20100302162057.GA14827@alice.local> <20100706004832.GL23879@digitalkingdom.org> <20100706164224.GA30521@alice.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-Original-Sender: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org designates 64.81.66.169 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline On Tue, Jul 06, 2010 at 12:00:06PM -0700, Lindar wrote: > > Not eliding those terminators makes even the simplest statements > > seem horribly complicated. I believe that the best way to teach > > elidable terminators is to teach them in such constructs as they > > are NOT elidable. To tell someone "This word means this, but is > > hardly ever used for this reason", likely tells that person > > "This isn't important, don't bother remembering it". But to say > > instead, "This new word here, which means this, is required in > > the sentence for this reason", seems to myself to have more, um, > > staying power. > > I'm sorry, this is a horrible idea. > > In my experience I know this, and all of the newest teaching > material reflects this. Teach terminators as if they're required, That seems amazingly obnoxious to me; I doubt I'd have learned the language in that case. [snip] > 2. "Well, now here's a cute trick. Right here, we don't actually > need "ku", because it reads the same either way." > > Sometimes you need it for random strange reasons with convoluted > rules, or you learn that you always need it and sometimes it can > be left off. > > For pedagogical reasons, option 2 has proven time and time again > to be the better alternative that results in much better > diction/word-choice/ phrasing. Please don't teach or use {cu} > until you've gotten well past things like abstractions, and even > then, don't use it unless it's absolutely necessary for the sake > of brevity (ex: {.i lo nu mi broda be lo brode be lo brodi bei lo > brodo be lo brodu cu co'e} instead of {.i lo nu mi broda be lo > brode be lo brodi ku bei lo brodo be lo brodu ku be'o ku be'o ku > be'o ku kei ku co'e}). You forgot {vau}. The correctly terminated version of that sentence, according to jbofihe, is: .i lo nu mi broda be lo brode be lo brodi ku bei lo brodo be lo brodu ku be'o ku be'o ku be'o vau kei ku co'e vau Placing {ku} after every sumti is absolutely insane to me, let alone placing {vau} everywhere it's required (which you're clearly not doing, so you're not following your own advice). If you think teaching that is resulting in better learning of the language, I'm going to want some significant evidence, because as far as I know almost all of the best speakers learned Lojban from the CLL, which introduces {cu} almost immediately (chapter 2, section 5) but not {ku} until much later (chapter 6, section 2). The first elidable terminator I can find mentioned is {ke'e}, in 5.5. Having said all that, there's lots of activity in #lojban I'm not on top of today; if there are a bunch of people who are great with the language and learned with "all elidable terminators required (except vau, I guess)", please have them speak up here. -Robin -- http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false" is "na nei". My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.