From lojban-beginners+bncCOjSjrXVGBCJ8orkBBoE5aGnSg@googlegroups.com Sat Sep 04 14:25:01 2010 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Os0EK-0003gH-U8; Sat, 04 Sep 2010 14:25:01 -0700 Received: by fxm17 with SMTP id 17sf429156fxm.16 for ; Sat, 04 Sep 2010 14:24:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=ilExr8WI+bWlqYm7u/Bokd5dplONVNwBfdQXwRhK+Y4=; b=RRJB6VEIg87X2vCzuUGemHBp4mBAce3eE9oU9pIIpvyegXorWcWmO0dTAl6RUGJlZ4 6bpLhNX7BoTVXhb5Ig6mVt1c6wn50XvP5+OFVuQ0kPKMNRrjWEtzK8zd4s7qNp8cg3Zm RHVfkHH5UwBiO6AuAShpX1eHB1zjx8Z21qX6o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=WDEMqVsW8iSellOsZbXi1Rop7mjC956lr3PTXbeQDotPFKEB1BxEJDZPN+o/39CIOq bRYb2ivOQOH5DAeuo8yKQQW3OqGAjJ5nvk11odLYZIXcIhwk4EQ0CZMkcpebf9s2A5td VivKay4w6eQVrgl1FzSm2XYwm8fph5Wc8rQY0= Received: by 10.223.5.194 with SMTP id 2mr71477faw.28.1283635465675; Sat, 04 Sep 2010 14:24:25 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.152.197 with SMTP id h5ls955782bkw.3.p; Sat, 04 Sep 2010 14:24:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.47.162 with SMTP id n34mr88319bkf.4.1283635463530; Sat, 04 Sep 2010 14:24:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.47.162 with SMTP id n34mr88318bkf.4.1283635463496; Sat, 04 Sep 2010 14:24:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f48.google.com (mail-bw0-f48.google.com [209.85.214.48]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id n18si1890987bkw.6.2010.09.04.14.24.22; Sat, 04 Sep 2010 14:24:22 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.48 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.48; Received: by bwz14 with SMTP id 14so2717334bwz.21 for ; Sat, 04 Sep 2010 14:24:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.115.212 with SMTP id j20mr1967310bkq.5.1283635462051; Sat, 04 Sep 2010 14:24:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.98.71 with HTTP; Sat, 4 Sep 2010 14:24:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2010 17:24:21 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] .i BAI bo From: Luke Bergen To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.48 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6d58a14bc99a7048f75ab12 --0016e6d58a14bc99a7048f75ab12 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If it makes it any easier to remember, I was always confused by this until = I started thinking of {bo} differently When I see {A .iXbo B} think of the X as describing how B relates to A. So {A .ibabo B} is "B is ba to A". And {A .imu'ibo B} is "B is mu'i to A". To me it seems like {.iXbo} is consistent between PU and BAI and it's the forms {broda mu'i lo nu brode} and {broda ba lo nu brode} that are being inconsistent with each other. {A ba lo nu B} is "A after B" but {A mu'i lo nu B} is "A because of B". With BAI it seems like the selbri is static and we're just adding more information to it "mi citka (oh and by the way the motivation for such was...) mu'i lo nu mi xagji". But PU reaches back and modifies the information about the selbri "mi citka (oh but wait, I did that citka-ing AFTER...) ba lo nu mi xagji". 2010/9/4 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Sat, Sep 4, 2010 at 3:20 PM, Stela Selckiku wrote= : > > > > Do you think we should expect to ever see this changed? > > It seems unlikely. > > > It seems to > > me like ".i BAI bo" is by far the more common case, I don't remember > > seeing ".i PU bo" used. Is it possible we could flip the ".i PU bo" > > case around so things make sense, or are there lots of texts I'm > > forgetting about that would break? > > Google +ibabo +cu to get an idea. > > > If I start using either of those I'm only going to use ".i BAI bo", > > since that seems to be in common use and there's no way we can > > actually use both. So I guess if the rule doesn't change then I'm > > just going to consider ".i PU bo" as worthless and dead. Does that > > make sense? > > It makes sense. You can always use ".i ba ku" instead of ".i ba bo" > with basically the same meaning. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. --0016e6d58a14bc99a7048f75ab12 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If it makes it any easier to remember, I was always confused by this until = I started thinking of {bo} differently

When I see {A .iX= bo B} think of the X as describing how B relates to A. =A0So {A .ibabo B} i= s "B is ba to A". =A0And {A .imu'ibo B} is "B is mu'= i to A".

To me it seems like {.iXbo} is consistent between PU an= d BAI and it's the forms {broda mu'i lo nu brode} and {broda ba lo = nu brode} that are being inconsistent with each other. =A0{A ba lo nu B} is= "A after B" but {A mu'i lo nu B} is "A because of B&quo= t;.

With BAI it seems like the selbri is static and we'= re just adding more information to it "mi citka (oh and by the way the= motivation for such was...) mu'i lo nu mi xagji". =A0But PU reach= es back and modifies the information about the selbri "mi citka (oh bu= t wait, I did that citka-ing AFTER...) ba lo nu mi xagji".

2010/9/4 Jorge Llamb=EDas = <jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Sat, Sep 4, 2010 at 3:20 PM, Stela Selckiku <selckiku@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Do you think we should expect to ever see this changed?

It seems unlikely.

>=A0It seems to
> me like ".i BAI bo" is by far the more common case, I don= 9;t remember
> seeing ".i PU bo" used. =A0Is it possible we could flip the = ".i PU bo"
> case around so things make sense, or are there lots of texts I'm > forgetting about that would break?

Google +ibabo +cu to get an idea.

> If I start using either of those I'm only going to use ".i BA= I bo",
> since that seems to be in common use and there's no way we can
> actually use both. =A0So I guess if the rule doesn't change then I= 'm
> just going to consider ".i PU bo" as worthless and dead. =A0= Does that
> make sense?

It makes sense. You can always use ".i ba ku" instead of &q= uot;.i ba bo"
with basically the same meaning.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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