From lojban-beginners+bncCJrK5PGGEBDDxpLkBBoEjekKUw@googlegroups.com Mon Sep 06 01:16:36 2010 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OsWsT-0007pt-9P; Mon, 06 Sep 2010 01:16:36 -0700 Received: by gxk9 with SMTP id 9sf6789203gxk.16 for ; Mon, 06 Sep 2010 01:16:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received:received-spf:received:received:received:from :organization:to:subject:date:user-agent:references:in-reply-to :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:message-id :x-interia-antivirus:x-emid:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=tsLEM5I+maHkB+0SEoS4ga9RYZW2n9RblmbiIxa+TiU=; b=iKEYEE1Lb1L5qaOk4jI9MMCJM4XFwGTPo3DLpnS79wOLwJjruLySuaAoerjcPMALba KE4bgKd/DqC4IsbK1G7LGj1l+CP8E2PBeoDFhsTzCX8pIxw2cZp/339UgZeHl7L4rkzu SfU9+oecnF8k3bNHAHrW+LdlngoGV1PB0t3CY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:from:organization:to:subject:date :user-agent:references:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:x-interia-antivirus:x-emid :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; b=0qXD6uqfDu3Ftw9USh0hefmhOnaVPKzfaVYFI82qpzxbBz5q6hb9KdnOA2qm5ogX4y Cjyb7AJy3riWUhrmZsX0T1Lb6Yu5guQRIqWMZETWzgXzrTXeSAjMDQ0oYMshnncWJpTO TRcNLxnoMygWEEy+wAqZXuHzWnX4elYlE5+5E= Received: by 10.91.135.13 with SMTP id m13mr752844agn.52.1283760963027; Mon, 06 Sep 2010 01:16:03 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.150.145.1 with SMTP id s1ls1418555ybd.1.p; Mon, 06 Sep 2010 01:16:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.151.63.18 with SMTP id q18mr149680ybk.10.1283760962331; Mon, 06 Sep 2010 01:16:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.80.167 with SMTP id t39mr107670bkk.23.1283686908977; Sun, 05 Sep 2010 04:41:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.80.167 with SMTP id t39mr107669bkk.23.1283686908935; Sun, 05 Sep 2010 04:41:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpo.poczta.interia.pl (smtpo.poczta.interia.pl [217.74.65.205]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id bv13si2278707bkb.4.2010.09.05.04.41.48; Sun, 05 Sep 2010 04:41:48 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jezuch@interia.pl designates 217.74.65.205 as permitted sender) client-ip=217.74.65.205; Received: by smtpo.poczta.interia.pl (INTERIA.PL, from userid 502) id 76E4C1A42F49; Sun, 5 Sep 2010 13:41:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from zx-spectrum-1 (c204.idd156.nettete.pl [77.79.204.156]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by poczta.interia.pl (INTERIA.PL) with ESMTPSA for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2010 13:41:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from jezuch by zx-spectrum-1 with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OsDiA-0005dQ-3s for lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; Sun, 05 Sep 2010 13:48:38 +0200 From: Krzysztof Sobolewski Organization: Sobole To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] ko curmi le nu mi ninpengau do mi Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2010 13:48:37 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.13.5 (Linux/2.6.33.7; KDE/4.4.5; x86_64; ; ) References: <201009042054.50156.jezuch@interia.pl> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart1431577.zypWcgJuAM"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <201009051348.38065.jezuch@interia.pl> X-Interia-Antivirus: OK X-EMID: d9748acc X-Original-Sender: jezuch@interia.pl X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jezuch@interia.pl designates 217.74.65.205 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jezuch@interia.pl Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , --nextPart1431577.zypWcgJuAM Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dnia niedziela, 5 wrze=C5=9Bnia 2010 o 09:47:46 Oleksii Melnyk napisa=C5=82= (a): > The definition above seems to be "polluted" by the English meaning of > > "learn", > > >=20 > Not at all. I just think, the "learn" comes to the Slavic languages too > late, or just was too insignificant to add more "grammatical cases" (that > works almost like the lojban's "sumti places") to support the common > "objects", involved in the action of learning. Well, it could be that, or it might be that Slavic languages have two separ= ate words for two different concepts: "acquiring skills" ("uczy=C4=87 si=C4= =99", in my language) and "acquiring knowledge" ("dowiadywa=C4=87 si=C4=99"= ). It's nothing new that words in different languages don't have exactly ov= erlapping meanings :) > However, at least 4 (not > counting always usable prepositional/vocative) of the existing "cases" of > Russian/Ukrainian (the only two, I know), can still be used with "learn". Yes, that's the whole idea of grammatical cases, isn't it? :) Although on t= he other hand (i think) natural languages, at least those I'm familiar with= , heavily use what in lojban is called "modals". Hence "mi cilre fo le cukt= e" is "I'm learning *from* a book". =2D-=20 Ecce Jezuch "10 Com&ments": "God: Im #1. No pix, plz. Uz my name nicely. Day7holy. Take care of mum&dad. Dont kill, scrU round, steal | lie. Keep yr hands (&eyz) off wot isnt yrs!'" - Dziesi=C4=99=C4=87 przykaza=C5=84 w SMS-lang --nextPart1431577.zypWcgJuAM Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) iEYEABECAAYFAkyDg5YACgkQy0fq9RM+TxicWQCfY9J9Ki2D738bYV/Q3AkYmI5b 0DAAn1BsrOlypEbRGwLJJ0Z1hcrRxLI8 =iz80 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --nextPart1431577.zypWcgJuAM--