From lojban-beginners+bncCKv97aq_GRCy2JTkBBoEowZ72Q@googlegroups.com Mon Sep 06 11:00:54 2010 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Osfzt-0000G8-MV; Mon, 06 Sep 2010 11:00:53 -0700 Received: by fxm17 with SMTP id 17sf634694fxm.16 for ; Mon, 06 Sep 2010 11:00:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=h+jQitXs9EhIstqAlxj2ly1dZdJFvVu0Oc0A28Uk2k4=; b=W5r7Wv66q21yWzU3AKt+EsJVoy6YJeFh4iQgu6egsW+UvVmrfULZQ2nJW6EYhdVXbs ZkWQtQ0aleIktwwwSnSRWXCxg3wIi7o6AehHUq4N6PKUkea0UdEb8jFIPzdY569CfCR3 AcGKRHCvDD00DRpyvKIXD1XvV/iTClZ1p/V5U= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=yfAHFNT1032wOJmNZyRpDl3w2SnG8CaCZ/h5n9ptc327RyGzDTk0WaFjOHvvyxsy9h dRuBzGM+kzQtxDq1tWS1sr/SljUIjz4rmtoBrPWBRHVt0uJJ5VCBSWPhDT7eKa/QMbC4 2IDsFb7NQD3j23Gjw1BmvXc9SrIg8Iyl/l6gQ= Received: by 10.223.4.139 with SMTP id 11mr119393far.34.1283796018638; Mon, 06 Sep 2010 11:00:18 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.152.197 with SMTP id h5ls1568026bkw.3.p; Mon, 06 Sep 2010 11:00:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.24.70 with SMTP id u6mr152080bkb.19.1283796017574; Mon, 06 Sep 2010 11:00:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.24.70 with SMTP id u6mr152079bkb.19.1283796017540; Mon, 06 Sep 2010 11:00:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f53.google.com (mail-bw0-f53.google.com [209.85.214.53]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id z25si3137156bku.5.2010.09.06.11.00.16; Mon, 06 Sep 2010 11:00:16 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lamelnyk@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.53 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.53; Received: by mail-bw0-f53.google.com with SMTP id 1so4035874bwz.12 for ; Mon, 06 Sep 2010 11:00:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.82.137 with SMTP id b9mr2444379bkl.127.1283796015888; Mon, 06 Sep 2010 11:00:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.5.84 with HTTP; Mon, 6 Sep 2010 11:00:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <201009051348.38065.jezuch@interia.pl> References: <201009042054.50156.jezuch@interia.pl> <201009051348.38065.jezuch@interia.pl> Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2010 21:00:15 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] ko curmi le nu mi ninpengau do mi From: Oleksii Melnyk To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lamelnyk@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lamelnyk@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.53 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lamelnyk@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6db6c287db882048f9b0d6b --0016e6db6c287db882048f9b0d6b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2010/9/5 Krzysztof Sobolewski > Yes, that's the whole idea of grammatical cases, isn't it? :) Have you tried to use all of the cases in one simple sentence? You'll found= , that, =E2=88=83 a lot of verbs, such that =E2=88=83 some cases, that using = it in the simple sentence with that verb gives a garbage. Take, for example, "BOJ=C4=84CY SI= =C4=98". In both of mine native lang's, using roughly a half of the available cases wit= h it causes nonsense. Here in lojbanistan, we say "that predicate have 2 sumt= i spaces". "dowiadywa=C4=87 si=C4=99" have 4, "uczy=C4=87 si=C4=99", probably= , 3 (:too lazy to check:). Most of English verbs, afaik, have not more than 2. So, "cilre" 3/2 less =C2=AB"polluted" by the English meaning=C2=BB, as =C2=ABby the russian=C2= =BB =E2=80=94 it does have "instrumental"(by) from "ours" languages, and just moved rarely usable "dative" to "seva'u", while "raised" more frequent "from" and "about" :) > Although on the other hand (i think) natural languages, at least those I'= m > familiar with, heavily use what in lojban is called "modals". Hence "mi > cilre fo le cukte" is "I'm learning *from* a book". > No, FA is not a "modal" thing. It marks the "direct objects" of the predicates. Our languages use 4 of the grammatical cases for that. --=20 mu'o mi'e lex --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. --0016e6db6c287db882048f9b0d6b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

2010/9/5 Krzysztof Sobolewski <jezuch@interia.pl>=
Yes, that's the whole idea of grammatical cases, isn't it? :)

Have you tried to use all of the cases in one simple sent= ence? You'll found, that, =E2=88=83 a lot of verbs, such that =E2=88=83= some cases, that using it in the simple sentence with that verb gives a ga= rbage. Take, for example, "BOJ=C4=84CY SI=C4=98". In both of mine= native lang's, using roughly a half of the available cases with it cau= ses nonsense. Here in lojbanistan, we say "that predicate have 2 sumti= spaces". "dowiadywa=C4=87 si=C4=99" have 4, "uczy=C4= =87 si=C4=99", probably, 3 (:too lazy to check:).

Most of English verbs, afaik, have not more than 2. So, "cilre&quo= t; 3/2 less =C2=AB"polluted" by the English meaning=C2=BB, as =C2= =ABby the russian=C2=BB =E2=80=94 it does have "instrumental"(by)= from "ours" languages, and just moved rarely usable "dativ= e" to "seva'u", while "raised" more frequent &= quot;from" and "about" :)
=C2=A0
Altho= ugh on the other hand (i think) natural languages, at least those I'm f= amiliar with, heavily use what in lojban is called "modals". Henc= e "mi cilre fo le cukte" is "I'm learning *from* a book&= quot;.

No, FA is not a "modal" thing. It marks th= e "direct objects" of the predicates. Our languages use 4 of the = grammatical cases for that.

--
mu'o mi'e = lex

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