From lojban-beginners+bncCKH6vKekGBDN2qTkBBoEvtiKsA@googlegroups.com Thu Sep 09 11:54:42 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OtmGY-0004h2-Ka; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 11:54:42 -0700 Received: by gya1 with SMTP id 1sf1489993gya.16 for ; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 11:54:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received :received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=oj12lE/k7yy66kFwwI7k05RLTgBk6clcCguSa/HnqjM=; b=jr6ufqWzbxukxRKFmpmBxO7U97i4janQtUTs35tXIdHeDS2ozlaoKJs9I49rvmkn89 kYrgQhUGEHg4hYRGJi0chPRJXJzhjybPe5WDhvQ9jFnIJrV95RnyuUGGZ2Neccbs3WdH PQFwzLW7TZpy6kd+j7H6dK3OLjNxIfxDsB0DI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=ph0TCxyDd4o5mba72qFmp95MC7VIk0NzpI8lXN4ayb8xl3gbD5e3eJJHHwKdrJ6hft J5n5v3bX5GaPB0dAdpjpoiUx68GUPxwRX9+K7OWHoDXryARfvdWzKXZRjZ183bXmvIWt gToGnD7mmlhPvPmZz2a8aEWCAoYeNxpuB4z/A= Received: by 10.91.17.13 with SMTP id u13mr1397030agi.3.1284058445575; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 11:54:05 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.151.127.4 with SMTP id e4ls2970412ybn.7.p; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 11:54:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.151.13.2 with SMTP id q2mr2444133ybi.24.1284058445144; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 11:54:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.74.5 with SMTP id w5mr64059wed.5.1284049394815; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 09:23:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.74.5 with SMTP id w5mr64058wed.5.1284049394798; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 09:23:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f54.google.com (mail-ww0-f54.google.com [74.125.82.54]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id o46si498415weq.2.2010.09.09.09.23.13; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 09:23:13 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of fagricipni@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.54 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.54; Received: by wwi17 with SMTP id 17so1534018wwi.11 for ; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 09:23:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.69.195 with SMTP id a3mr39653wbj.58.1284049393557; Thu, 09 Sep 2010 09:23:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.63.131 with HTTP; Thu, 9 Sep 2010 09:23:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 12:23:13 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Best Word for Humanoid? From: "H. Felton" To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: fagricipni@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of fagricipni@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.54 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=fagricipni@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On 9/9/10, A J wrote: > about humanoid > > REMSMI is right in my opinion, but it still doesn't have some sciencefiction > hint. > in russian there is a phrase,that is almost equal for humanoids - "bratya po > razumu" (intellect brothers) which points that intellect is main feature of > "remna" and "remsmi". > maybe lojban word "humanoid" should reflect smthng for human intelligence? Not exactly. I have always taken "prenu" to include the concept that the English neologism "sophont"[1] was invented to describe. "prenu" could also be taken to inculde in addition what one might describe as "pseudo-sophont" describing the quality of a advanced ELIZA[2] program perhaps; from the part of the definition: "x1 displays personality/a persona", which implies to me that "prenu" does not necessarily imply a "full personality". I have always taken "remna" to mean Homo sapiens; analogous to, for example, "gerku" and "mlatu": gerku: x1 is a dog/canine/[bitch] of species/breed x2 mlatu: x1 is a cat/[puss/pussy/kitten] [feline animal] of species/breed x2; (adjective:) x1 is feline thus; remna: x1 is a human/human being/man (non-specific gender-free sense); (adjective:) x1 is human "remna" does not include an x2; so from that I take it that the species is part of the definition of the word. Perhaps it was a mistake to leave the x2 off of that definition; after all, Homo sapiens was preceded by Neanderthal, of which even scientists can not decide whether they were Homo sapiens -- "Neanderthals are either classified as a subspecies (or race) of humans (Homo sapiens neanderthalensis) or as a separate species (Homo neanderthalensis)"[From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal]. If even the scientists disagree on what was Homo sapiens, then there is even less authoritative opinion on what is "human". So, I think that "remna" should remain a biological classification. As for "remsmi", I still think in anatomical terms or physical morphological terms; again this comes from the direction of science fiction that I have read, *and* descriptions of human evolution. If the way you have described the usage of "bratya po razumu" (intellect brothers) is correct; I would have no qualms about translating it as "prenu". Should "nanmu" and "ninmu" have been defined as male and female "prenu"(persons) rather than "humanoids"? That one, I'm not sure about; I could see it going either way. However, the real "practical" answer behind my question is that I am one of those gender-neutral language freaks. ( http://aetherlumina.com/gnp/ ). In actual practice, I imagine that "prenu" and "remna" will be sufficient for almost all cases that I will ever encounter in reality; while there are a few extant species (certainly within the Hominidae family) where in poor conditions; eg, dim lighting, or if some of their members start wearing clothes; that I might find hard to tell immediately if what I saw was a member of Homo sapiens; there are very few places left on Earth where I might be able to have a *reasonable* doubt about the humanoid's membership in Homo sapiens. [1]http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sophont [2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELIZA -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.