From lojban-beginners+bncCML0xpmUARDEuJ7kBBoE78Ufiw@googlegroups.com Wed Sep 08 07:23:36 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1OtLYg-0007Wn-BD; Wed, 08 Sep 2010 07:23:36 -0700 Received: by qyk12 with SMTP id 12sf22203qyk.16 for ; Wed, 08 Sep 2010 07:23:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=ths0wj98wxlIIQ81nhteImYRsPTIIQrp54CpZsJC/qk=; b=0Hw5rx6TpzcIoUMRvxpjFg7RrVW+wZETFeQJHI7517rHR9xFumguOuBK7CB3Sly7RY LV5Sv2vtOS7929nEV8mUEETu8rePk39I/pVy06JMqIz1nQ4cZ+UwUenXbj4Kk4jBOPGu FEbNWcg+sC7t6e/J80fqyHzsgxeBc43OX1YOA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=3Rb0Bh/OyItB8aEDw6IHgXmTytT9f9FYRlVE5vuboBo6+nSqeoDlNX1ae/bo6ymlSd Z0gsLR+vyayBI+7Bw5WbUQjN/4w3k/Jffa91G88boCjfYnf1P+yfeATS0dF/WukzeZ82 9hlNG1pz5SsY1Tl4BAraT0W2w8lrkNM7D+MDU= Received: by 10.224.76.1 with SMTP id a1mr233942qak.19.1283955780236; Wed, 08 Sep 2010 07:23:00 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.66.218 with SMTP id o26ls1141551qai.3.p; Wed, 08 Sep 2010 07:22:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.39.75 with SMTP id f11mr558005qae.4.1283955778575; Wed, 08 Sep 2010 07:22:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.39.75 with SMTP id f11mr558004qae.4.1283955778512; Wed, 08 Sep 2010 07:22:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qw0-f49.google.com (mail-qw0-f49.google.com [209.85.216.49]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 2si25553qci.2.2010.09.08.07.22.57; Wed, 08 Sep 2010 07:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.49 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.49; Received: by mail-qw0-f49.google.com with SMTP id 4so39364qwe.36 for ; Wed, 08 Sep 2010 07:22:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.97.233 with SMTP id m41mr117527qan.221.1283955296752; Wed, 08 Sep 2010 07:14:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.101.208 with HTTP; Wed, 8 Sep 2010 07:14:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <201009071434.19441.phma@phma.optus.nu> References: <59ca95ff-dab4-4899-97b6-d26dd2352de5@l20g2000yqe.googlegroups.com> <201009071434.19441.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 10:14:56 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] About reading speed of lojban text. Compared with natlang's text. From: Ian Johnson To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.49 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00c09f88d3705ed7dd048fc023c8 --00c09f88d3705ed7dd048fc023c8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is talk of "equivalent text" and "translated text" here. For clarity, are these being used interchangeably, or is a "translated text" not considered, in common discourse, to be written in the same way as an "equivalent text"? For example: .i mi gasnu lo nu do nelci mi I bring about an event of you liking me. <---translated text I cause you to like me. <----equivalent text is my interpretation of these terms. (Please ignore my laziness about the details of gasnu here; I was just looking for a case where standard English uses an infinitive while Lojban uses an abstractor). That is, a translated text, while it may not actually be literal, attempts to replicate the grammatical structure of the original sentence, while an equivalent text attempts to convey the same meaning within the idiom of the target language= , without giving the grammar of the original sentence any particular weight o= n its own. There are probably formal linguistic terms or something for this that I don't actually know. Anyway, is this consistent with the usage here? Also, for what it's worth, I find that conveying smaller amounts of meaning (like my example above) is somewhat "hard" (syllabically, perhaps otherwise= ) in Lojban relative to English. However, I find that conveying larger amount= s of meaning quickly becomes easier in Lojban compared to English. This example is somewhat better than most, probably (because it can be done with an attitudinal alone), but it demonstrates the difference: .i .ui mi gasnu lo nu do nelci mi I am happy that I cause you to like me. English takes 5 syllables to do what Lojban achieves in 1 syllable, and the result is a previously longer sentence in both characters and syllables is now shorter in characters and the same length in syllables. mu'o mi'e latros. On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 2:34 PM, Pierre Abbat wrote: > On Monday 06 September 2010 15:50:05 spermwhale.warrior wrote: > > Hi everyone ! > > I'm not fluent in lojban at all, but I like study its linguistic > > properties. > > I wondered something ... With such an high syllables's rate (I ask the > > rather fluent speakers/writers among us), comparing two short text, > > with typical constructs we use every day, such as : comparatives, > > conditionnals, vocatives, citations from someone else, simples logical > > links between otherwise independent sentences. > > One in lojban ... and one in english, or any langage you are the most > > fluent in. > > The two text written with the same look towards semantic details, > > except when (whatever is considered as) evidents inferences from > > context can be made. > > > > My question is the following : are you able, to read the lojban piece > > of text speedier than or as speedily as the chosen natlang piece of > > text ? > > > > Or not ? > > > > Does lojban's preciseness and accuracy towards semantic content of its > > constructs make it inherently long-winded ? > > I estimate that Lojban text is about 1.2 times as long as corresponding > English text, mainly because some extra phonemes, syllables, and words ar= e > necessary for unambiguous parsing. I managed to translate "Il =E9tait un > petit > navire" (http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=3Dle+cmalu+bloti) > without having to squeeze in another syllable. Lojban is pro-drop and eve= n > tense-drop, which somewhat balances the need for extra sounds. > > > ps: I am fluent only in French, and as you know French guys are the > > worst students in foreign languages of the EU. If you wince in reading > > me, please remember it ! > > You may be interested in the French Lojban list. Send an email to > lojban-fr-request@lojban.org to subscribe. > > Pierre > -- > Jews use a lunisolar calendar; Muslims use a solely lunar calendar. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. --00c09f88d3705ed7dd048fc023c8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is talk of "equivalent text" and "translated text"= ; here. For clarity, are these being used interchangeably, or is a "tr= anslated text" not considered, in common discourse, to be written in t= he same way as an "equivalent text"? For example:
.i mi gasnu lo nu do nelci mi
I bring about an event of you liking me. &= lt;---translated text
I cause you to like me. <----equivalent textis my interpretation of these terms. (Please ignore my laziness about the = details of gasnu here; I was just looking for a case where standard English= uses an infinitive while Lojban uses an abstractor). That is, a translated= text, while it may not actually be literal, attempts to replicate the gram= matical structure of the original sentence, while an equivalent text attemp= ts to convey the same meaning within the idiom of the target language, with= out giving the grammar of the original sentence any particular weight on it= s own. There are probably formal linguistic terms or something for this tha= t I don't actually know. Anyway, is this consistent with the usage here= ?

Also, for what it's worth, I find that conveying smaller amounts of= meaning (like my example above) is somewhat "hard" (syllabically= , perhaps otherwise) in Lojban relative to English. However, I find that co= nveying larger amounts of meaning quickly becomes easier in Lojban compared= to English. This example is somewhat better than most, probably (because i= t can be done with an attitudinal alone), but it demonstrates the differenc= e:
.i .ui mi gasnu lo nu do nelci mi
I am happy that I cause you to like me= .
English takes 5 syllables to do what Lojban achieves in 1 syllable, an= d the result is a previously longer sentence in both characters and syllabl= es is now shorter in characters and the same length in syllables.

mu'o mi'e latros.

On Tue, Se= p 7, 2010 at 2:34 PM, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
On Monday 06 September 2010 15:50:05 spermwhale.warrior w= rote:
> Hi everyone !
> I'm not fluent in lojban at all, but I like study its linguistic > properties.
> I wondered something ... With such an high syllables's rate (I ask= the
> rather fluent speakers/writers among us), comparing two short text, > with typical constructs we use every day, such as : comparatives,
> conditionnals, vocatives, citations from someone else, simples logical=
> links between otherwise independent sentences.
> One in lojban ... and one in english, or any langage you are the most<= br> > fluent in.
> The two text written with the same look towards semantic details,
> except when (whatever is considered as) evidents inferences from
> context can be made.
>
> My question is the following : are you able, to read the lojban piece<= br> > of text speedier than or as speedily as the chosen natlang piece of > text ?
>
> Or not ?
>
> Does lojban's preciseness and accuracy towards semantic content of= its
> constructs make it inherently long-winded ?

I estimate that Lojban text is about 1.2 times as long as correspondi= ng
English text, mainly because some extra phonemes, syllables, and words are<= br> necessary for unambiguous parsing. I managed to translate "Il =E9tait = un petit
navire" (http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?= page=3Dle+cmalu+bloti)
without having to squeeze in another syllable. Lojban is pro-drop and even<= br> tense-drop, which somewhat balances the need for extra sounds.

> ps: I am fluent only in French, and as you know French guys are the > worst students in foreign languages of the EU. If you wince in reading=
> me, please remember it !

You may be interested in the French Lojban list. Send an email to
lojban-fr-request@lojban.or= g to subscribe.

Pierre
--
Jews use a lunisolar calendar; Muslims use a solely lunar calendar.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.
--00c09f88d3705ed7dd048fc023c8--