From lojban-beginners+bncCNTM-bHNDhCO9JjlBBoEM0Ghbg@googlegroups.com Fri Oct 01 12:44:48 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P1lX7-0007eG-3V; Fri, 01 Oct 2010 12:44:48 -0700 Received: by gya1 with SMTP id 1sf3356891gya.16 for ; Fri, 01 Oct 2010 12:44:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received:received-spf:received:date:from:to:subject :in-reply-to:message-id:references:user-agent:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=uMxHZl1cS9yYBJGwy0lUMCM36V6k8vdBqN/7x/FdvOY=; b=oUBq6uLqZz7mqJzdGZuldRGQm4Huxf4xWJZR/m0f5AviSNu5PJCAkvNfqjYv1GpbXo Ov7bOWGi4xrbuawfPP2HkyZfDbXGlwGGC8zmfJWytO9cWXWGs3Iufv2Eudq1bGk1mYq+ hd5Y+/PvQ88NbdQANVZ0RUO5lqvsFRaD+Ed08= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to :message-id:references:user-agent:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=vQLUEApn8MHHrjmKjmVRdoMjnZ9giBd+5s5oiPdOoieM+x920wWQgy6TtiTA+8PHr2 fxJuHeq6A3bpYwj4SdE+dAC4HsKWd04/NjgXlbXfOVeBW0o1y7XUO335UrgQzjX2Ohx4 QfghCMjkMiv0B9gpmEyGLqXr4tmwwBM9RD0oQ= Received: by 10.101.20.2 with SMTP id x2mr49196ani.41.1285962254804; Fri, 01 Oct 2010 12:44:14 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.156.10 with SMTP id i10ls1340081ano.3.p; Fri, 01 Oct 2010 12:44:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.165.14 with SMTP id n14mr391366ane.3.1285962254293; Fri, 01 Oct 2010 12:44:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.36.140 with SMTP id t12mr1512501ibd.4.1285959632646; Fri, 01 Oct 2010 12:00:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.36.140 with SMTP id t12mr1512500ibd.4.1285959632598; Fri, 01 Oct 2010 12:00:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cec.wustl.edu (express.cec.wustl.edu [128.252.21.16]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id z37si917552ibq.0.2010.10.01.12.00.32; Fri, 01 Oct 2010 12:00:32 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 128.252.21.16 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of adam@pubcrawler.org) client-ip=128.252.21.16; Received: from grid.cec.wustl.edu (grid.cec.wustl.edu [128.252.20.97]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail.cec.wustl.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8F0A71E806D; Fri, 1 Oct 2010 14:00:32 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2010 14:00:31 -0500 (CDT) From: "Adam D. Lopresto" To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] cusku/NU In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <671C9B4A-4E53-4F59-8B06-22E74A4A7AC7@switchb.org> <9A313EBC-E0FD-40BB-B083-F8B65E729883@switchb.org> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (LRH 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: adam@pubcrawler.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 128.252.21.16 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of adam@pubcrawler.org) smtp.mail=adam@pubcrawler.org Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 1 Oct 2010, Luke Bergen wrote: > gah, du'u and sedu'u so are so closely related that it's hard to distingu= ish > them. =A0So, {se du'u} is a piece of text that expresses a {du'u} which i= s a > fact. =A0I've been using {cusku lo du'u} all this time when I really mean= t {se > du'u}. =A0{mi djuno lo du'u broda} =A0but {mi cusku lo se du'u do broda}. I'm not sure if this is confusing you or not, but let me just mention that= =20 {se du'u} isn't a separate abstractor, it's just a handy way of getting at = the x2 of the relationship. {du'u} (like all abstractors) takes a bridi and converts it into a selbri, in this case with the definition "x1 is predicat= ion [bridi] expressed in sentence x2". So du'u mi plana [vau] [kei] is "x1 is the predication of my being fat, which can be expressed in senten= ce x2". Also, don't overlook {xusra}, which takes a du'u1 natively. .i do xusra lo du'u mi plana [vau] [kei] [ku] [vau] > On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 1:09 PM, Kevin Reid wrote: > > On Oct 1, 2010, at 11:58, Luke Bergen wrote: > > oops. =A0I thought that's what {du'u} was. =A0I thought > {se du'u} was "the sentence that expresses a bridi". > =A0So I would think that {se du'u} is the actual > sentence and {du'u} is the basic relationship that > the {se du'u} is expressing. >=20 >=20 > Yes, exactly so. >=20 > 1. You said "you are fat" to me =A0 =A0do cusku lu do plana li'u mi > 2. You said that I am fat =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0do cusku lo se du'u mi plana >=20 > #1 implies #2; #2 is less specific than #1, in that it does not give > exact phrasing. >=20 > Why do you think you need to use some other abstraction than {du'u}? >=20 >=20 > -- > Kevin Reid =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 = =A0 > =A0 >=20 > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to > lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. >=20 >=20 > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. >=20 > --=20 Adam Lopresto http://cec.wustl.edu/~adam/ A man, a plan, a canoe, pasta, heros, rajahs, a coloratura, maps, snipe, percale, macaroni, a gag, a banana bag, a tan, a tag, a banana bag again (o= r a camel), a crepe, pins, Spam, a rut, a Rolo, cash, a jar, sore hats, a peon,= a canal -- Panama! --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.