From lojban-beginners+bncCNTPpI2KGxCwquPlBBoE5EDZvg@googlegroups.com Fri Oct 15 15:27:22 2010 Received: from mail-pz0-f61.google.com ([209.85.210.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P6skB-0001cY-Ld; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 15:27:22 -0700 Received: by pzk2 with SMTP id 2sf722569pzk.16 for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 15:27:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:x-authority-analysis:x-cloudmark-score :x-originating-ip:received:received:from:to:subject:date:user-agent :references:in-reply-to:mime-version:message-id:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-disposition; bh=SY7R+keQP+iAB9S93sNoZqYIgea2+/j5oibsn/Psogk=; b=rzRMipB5SmUw79yO4JZtl7Nxhsg9gWOuqAhtPjXeD0CQn+3ETdCqc2yPncSjHFQsUE TULMWHP00Wfr6+dTXWqJAH1gHJYYx6+ElSLzEByCCWV8oCznku4qBDDlrrLWeoSxnLXo gKu48k/zS+qq2KcASx33PZ+RH+3ZdYaKo3d2Y= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-authority-analysis:x-cloudmark-score :x-originating-ip:from:to:subject:date:user-agent:references :in-reply-to:mime-version:message-id:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-disposition; b=mBmtNqxqDgiQiZcAVTEsk8YqWmxKYJ72r0wdfozQ5YTeCHidWrsHMzK7ezkVigDivV JfXUHJgw/yZTjFA2N5ORGY8nFEq1+cBnQicnJVQB6jCvsrO9uR35xgUGpcoBjMYeE4dH 6mxjBmQIv6JyOrBB3fhNvt4rvJBtlrvrw4JBI= Received: by 10.142.118.15 with SMTP id q15mr26468wfc.53.1287181616270; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 15:26:56 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.2.41 with SMTP id 41ls2068889wfb.0.p; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 15:26:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.252.19 with SMTP id z19mr824046wfh.36.1287181614917; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 15:26:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.252.19 with SMTP id z19mr824045wfh.36.1287181614893; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 15:26:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.123]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id n6si11155918wfl.7.2010.10.15.15.26.53; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 15:26:53 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 75.180.132.123 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of phma@phma.optus.nu) client-ip=75.180.132.123; X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=lu/RhtYP0ChAeUxMEPBris12a71TWT5f9yvo3GNwP9w= c=1 sm=0 a=BloiktsQ_S4A:10 a=wPDyFdB5xvgA:10 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=9o99xeNKNPYSmM5t9x5+TQ==:17 a=8YJikuA2AAAA:8 a=NEAV23lmAAAA:8 a=4g6I2GeE6onr_6vYQbUA:9 a=C2BqTRzaWHl1LXFZWJivTfdvVkcA:4 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=9o99xeNKNPYSmM5t9x5+TQ==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 75.176.118.168 Received: from [75.176.118.168] ([75.176.118.168:44908] helo=chausie) by cdptpa-oedge02.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id 46/08-14228-C25D8BC4; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 22:26:52 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chausie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29E7E1568A for ; Fri, 15 Oct 2010 18:26:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Pierre Abbat To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] newbie question on bridi construction Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 18:26:48 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.6 (enterprise 0.20070907.709405) References: <2402d4cd-100d-42f4-9240-3463600325be@y32g2000prc.googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <2402d4cd-100d-42f4-9240-3463600325be@y32g2000prc.googlegroups.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <201010151826.50321.phma@phma.optus.nu> X-Original-Sender: phma@phma.optus.nu X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 75.180.132.123 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of phma@phma.optus.nu) smtp.mail=phma@phma.optus.nu Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline On Thursday 14 October 2010 23:17:17 la deivyd. wrote: > Hi All, > > I'm just starting to learn lojban -- starting with smart.fm gismu > flash cards and reading through the (online html version of) CLL. I > came to something in CLL that makes me think I'm fundamentally > misunderstanding how the grammar works, so I thought I'd de-lurk and > ask. (Is there a gismu for "x1 lurks on list x2"? Just kidding.) I suggest "mipyju'i": m2=j1 is hidden from and pays attention to m3=j2. > Example 6.1 (http://www.lojban.org/publications/reference_grammar/ > chapter7.html#e6d1): > > la .alis. sipna le ri kumfa > > says the translation is "Alice sleeps in her room." > > If I understand how the bridi work, I should first look at sipna > (because kumfa has been made into a sumti by adding { le ri } in front > of it, right?) as a "function": sipna(x1), where x1 is > { la .alis. }. But the sentence, and the translation, seem to imply > that this is sipna(x1,x2), with x2 being { le ri kumfa }. When I look > up sipna in my gismu references, it only seems to have an x1. Is this > example a mistake? Or are my gismu lists outdated and there is an x2 > for sipna? Or can you add sumti beyond the specified number of > arguments to a gismu? There is no x2 of sipna, but it is syntactically correct to put anything in any place of any selbri, whether or not it has such a place. The meaning of putting something in an undefined terbri, however, is undefined. x2 of sipna could be anything having to do with sleeping; it's undefined. The proper translation is "la .alis. sipna ne'i le ri kumfa". In Alice in Wonderland, there is this sentence (I think I wrote it, but I'd have to check the CVS log to be sure): Why, I haven't had a wink of sleep these three weeks! ze'e le jeftu be li ci mi sipna noda (ISTR a "ku" or something after "ci") Here "noda" is in the undefined x2 of "sipna" as if it were the wink place. If the usage in the Book is normative, it means "For the infinitely long three weeks, I haven't slept anywhere!". There is a revision of the CLL in progress at http://dag.github.com/cll/. Pierre -- .i toljundi do .ibabo mi'afra tu'a do .ibabo damba do .ibabo do jinga .icu'u la ma'atman. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.