From lojban-beginners+bncCMHEmaCOBhDJzOjlBBoEclXFqQ@googlegroups.com Sat Oct 16 15:25:40 2010 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P7FC3-0008Bc-Tr; Sat, 16 Oct 2010 15:25:40 -0700 Received: by gxk6 with SMTP id 6sf2273427gxk.16 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 2010 15:25:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=M9tiMFgva2qTf6923F51u+dFDhL00l3B/zxbznRR3O4=; b=x9dglqicXWKDwmL7lGUXL/bHk/SCNckzl9+7igb/PtwF59ZKFMo7fro4+C1SnJEddZ hew/5riTH6C52If5gZe0txoBDqymPjpTNIHH2SnlZIZF0Mb9WiwHxNMQ2iis2bkcNTJP Pt1PfVvaE87TZQBHsBJMI5HEDA1R4FX0fcyYo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=E2x5BZD8MeYxW/2ViJvePtwUFBesy97j0TUgNDmfA3b3M5hOA11dxvqwYgoMB8f+wK IRzYA9AYonPhzjmJg+j10JtSLCpapNTbndyn+va9uZphJdtDE3XRxv1s4gydk5lGa7wB q2lZQ0+cqT2oohTdydjbkVsE6ShLq+mavOGkk= Received: by 10.151.68.12 with SMTP id v12mr132684ybk.6.1287267913634; Sat, 16 Oct 2010 15:25:13 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.112.41 with SMTP id u41ls3072826ibp.1.p; Sat, 16 Oct 2010 15:25:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.183.7 with SMTP id ce7mr1529342ibb.7.1287267912883; Sat, 16 Oct 2010 15:25:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.183.7 with SMTP id ce7mr1529341ibb.7.1287267912819; Sat, 16 Oct 2010 15:25:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-iw0-f179.google.com (mail-iw0-f179.google.com [209.85.214.179]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id b32si8472204ibq.1.2010.10.16.15.25.11; Sat, 16 Oct 2010 15:25:11 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.179 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.179; Received: by mail-iw0-f179.google.com with SMTP id 9so1854115iwn.10 for ; Sat, 16 Oct 2010 15:25:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.170.13 with SMTP id b13mr1960492ibz.62.1287267911497; Sat, 16 Oct 2010 15:25:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.208.15 with HTTP; Sat, 16 Oct 2010 15:25:11 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 16:25:11 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Getting in to the Lojban mindset From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.179 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e68fa78098774d0492c36a1b --0016e68fa78098774d0492c36a1b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 5:02 AM, Stela Selckiku wrote: > On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 3:37 AM, mashers wrote: > > coi ro do > > fi'i > > > So, does anyone have any suggestions for how I can begin to > > reprogramme my brain? I'm aware that after 27 years of exposure to > > English, my thought patterns are based on English and it will take > > time to start understanding and formulating concepts in a different > > way. I just have no idea how to begin to do this! > > Give it time. That's the main thing that's going to help, really. > Sleep on it a bunch of times. Don't expect it to make sense all at > once. > > But I guess I'll try to give you some specific advice. Focus on > understanding the basics. If you can deeply understand the shape of a > simple bridi, then you understand most of the language. Everything in > Lojban is made out of that shape. We take a zillion different looking > things that are all fundamentally simple bridi, and cram them together > into one complex bridi. > > For instance descriptions with an article, like "lo" or "le", are > really whole bridi that are just grabbed by their x1. The rest of the > places are still there, hidden (and can be revealed by be/bei/be'o). > For instance every time you say "lo klama", the goer, there's a hidden > bridi wrapped up there, where "klama" is the selbri. The x1 (the > goer) is connected to the bridi the sumti "lo klama" is in, but the > rest of the sumti of "klama" are still there, dangling invisibly-- > there's a destination and origin and route and vehicle that are all > silently implied. > > Other seemingly complex grammatical features are also just ways of > connecting simple bridi together. You can attach a noi/poi/voi to a > sumti to add another description of it. It's described as being in > the "ke'a" place (often ke'a is just implied, it's usually secretly in > the first unfilled place of the embedded bridi). So one sumti is > described two ways, by the place it has in the bridi it's subordinate > to, and also as taking the "ke'a" place in the noi/poi/voi bridi. > > I feel like my descriptions of how it works are making it sound > complex. It does SOUND complex. But it's not, not really. Well it > is, and it isn't. There's only one shape that does everything. In a > way that's tremendously simple. Once you understand how the bridi > shape does everything, acts like "verbs" and "nouns" and "adjectives" > and "descriptions" and everything, it's a very simple and elegant way > to do things. > > A lot of things in Lojban are so simple they're difficult to explain. > Once you've explained it, it seems like you haven't said anything. > All you've said is that yet another construct in the language is > shaped like a bridi, because they all are, and where it plugs in to > another bridi and how they're related semantically. > > A lot of the things in Lojban are specific kinds of vagueness. Lojban > is masterful at vagueness. It's also OK at specificity and exactness. > But vagueness is where it really shines. That might be > counterintuitive, it might seem like it doesn't fit with our mission. > But actually as you come to understand it, you realize that that's > exactly how we accomplish what we set out to accomplish. A language > where you express everything in the universe exactly all the time > isn't possible. The nature of language is to compress real, > complicated situations into tremendously simple, low-bandwidth > descriptions. The only way that Lojban can have the kind of precision > and directness that we want is by quarantining the imprecision and > indirection that are necessary to communicate efficiently. > > So we have a lot of places where we have very specific, precise > vagueness. For instance take tanru. Every tanru has two parts, the > se tanru or seltanru or seltau (the first part) and the te tanru or > tertanru or tertau (the second part). The rule is simple: The tertau > determines the structure of the bridi (and a tanru is always the heart > of a bridi, either a main bridi or a subordinate bridi or a hidden > bridi in a description). The tertau is where you must be accurate, > where the precision and exactness of Lojban are in play. The seltau > on the other hand is just related to the tertau.... somehow. It's > utterly vague. It's even vague how vague it is. It could be so > closely related to the tertau that for instance it's identical to the > x1, as in a "xunre plise" (red apple) that's both red and an apple. > It could be so distantly related to the tertau that it's related by > vaguely reminding you of something that looks like someone who talked > to the tertau's brother last Wednesday. All of the exactness is > confined to the tertau. All of the vagueness is confined to the > seltau. > > Everything in Lojban is made of these ingredients: Simple bridi, > aggregated together into complicated shapes. Some of the joints are > perfectly precise: A sumti marked with noi/poi is definitely in the > "ke'a" role, exactly as if it had appeared in that as a main bridi. > Some of the joints are perfectly vague: A seltau has some sort of > relationship with its tertau. > > > Just to give a bit of background, I am a native English speaker. I > > am a trained and practicing Speech and Language Therapist (so > > linguistics and cognition are my speciality). I am dyslexic, > > dyspraxic and somewhere on the high functioning end of the > > autistic spectrum, but fortunately that does not inhibit my passion > > for linguistics to any significant degree :-) > > Oh hello again! I recognize that self-description, we talked on IRC a > few days ago. :) > > mi'e .telselkik. mu'o > I actually know all that and /I/ got confused reading it. .u'i zo'o To be succint regarding tanru, the place structure of the bridi is determined by the tertau, the seltau is only concerned with the x1. So with the tanru {sutra klama}, the x1 must be both {lo sutra} and {lo klama}, but x2, x3, x4 and x5 only have to be klama's, sutra doesn't care. -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --0016e68fa78098774d0492c36a1b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 5:02 AM, Stela S= elckiku <selckik= u@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 3:37 AM, mashers <mail@mashley.net> wrote:
> coi ro do

fi'i

> So, does anyone have any suggestions for how I can begin to
> reprogramme my brain? I'm aware that after 27 years of exposure to=
> English, my thought patterns are based on English and it will take
> time to start understanding and formulating concepts in a different > way. I just have no idea how to begin to do this!

Give it time. =A0That's the main thing that's going to help, = really.
Sleep on it a bunch of times. =A0Don't expect it to make sense all at once.

But I guess I'll try to give you some specific advice. =A0Focus on
understanding the basics. =A0If you can deeply understand the shape of a simple bridi, then you understand most of the language. =A0Everything in Lojban is made out of that shape. =A0We take a zillion different looking things that are all fundamentally simple bridi, and cram them together
into one complex bridi.

For instance descriptions with an article, like "lo" or "le&= quot;, are
really whole bridi that are just grabbed by their x1. =A0The rest of the places are still there, hidden (and can be revealed by be/bei/be'o). For instance every time you say "lo klama", the goer, there's= a hidden
bridi wrapped up there, where "klama" is the selbri. =A0The x1 (t= he
goer) is connected to the bridi the sumti "lo klama" is in, but t= he
rest of the sumti of "klama" are still there, dangling invisibly-= -
there's a destination and origin and route and vehicle that are all
silently implied.

Other seemingly complex grammatical features are also just ways of
connecting simple bridi together. =A0You can attach a noi/poi/voi to a
sumti to add another description of it. =A0It's described as being in the "ke'a" place (often ke'a is just implied, it's us= ually secretly in
the first unfilled place of the embedded bridi). =A0So one sumti is
described two ways, by the place it has in the bridi it's subordinate to, and also as taking the "ke'a" place in the noi/poi/voi br= idi.

I feel like my descriptions of how it works are making it sound
complex. =A0It does SOUND complex. =A0But it's not, not really. =A0Well= it
is, and it isn't. =A0There's only one shape that does everything. = =A0In a
way that's tremendously simple. =A0Once you understand how the bridi shape does everything, acts like "verbs" and "nouns" an= d "adjectives"
and "descriptions" and everything, it's a very simple and ele= gant way
to do things.

A lot of things in Lojban are so simple they're difficult to explain. Once you've explained it, it seems like you haven't said anything.<= br> All you've said is that yet another construct in the language is
shaped like a bridi, because they all are, and where it plugs in to
another bridi and how they're related semantically.

A lot of the things in Lojban are specific kinds of vagueness. =A0Lojban is masterful at vagueness. =A0It's also OK at specificity and exactness= .
=A0But vagueness is where it really shines. =A0That might be
counterintuitive, it might seem like it doesn't fit with our mission. But actually as you come to understand it, you realize that that's
exactly how we accomplish what we set out to accomplish. =A0A language
where you express everything in the universe exactly all the time
isn't possible. =A0The nature of language is to compress real,
complicated situations into tremendously simple, low-bandwidth
descriptions. =A0The only way that Lojban can have the kind of precision and directness that we want is by quarantining the imprecision and
indirection that are necessary to communicate efficiently.

So we have a lot of places where we have very specific, precise
vagueness. =A0For instance take tanru. =A0Every tanru has two parts, the se tanru or seltanru or seltau (the first part) and the te tanru or
tertanru or tertau (the second part). =A0The rule is simple: The tertau
determines the structure of the bridi (and a tanru is always the heart
of a bridi, either a main bridi or a subordinate bridi or a hidden
bridi in a description). =A0The tertau is where you must be accurate,
where the precision and exactness of Lojban are in play. =A0The seltau
on the other hand is just related to the tertau.... somehow. =A0It's utterly vague. =A0It's even vague how vague it is. =A0It could be so closely related to the tertau that for instance it's identical to the x1, as in a "xunre plise" (red apple) that's both red and an = apple.
It could be so distantly related to the tertau that it's related by
vaguely reminding you of something that looks like someone who talked
to the tertau's brother last Wednesday. =A0All of the exactness is
confined to the tertau. =A0All of the vagueness is confined to the
seltau.

Everything in Lojban is made of these ingredients: Simple bridi,
aggregated together into complicated shapes. =A0Some of the joints are
perfectly precise: A sumti marked with noi/poi is definitely in the
"ke'a" role, exactly as if it had appeared in that as a main = bridi.
Some of the joints are perfectly vague: A seltau has some sort of
relationship with its tertau.

> Just to give a bit of background, I am a native English speaker. I
> am a trained and practicing Speech and Language Therapist (so
> linguistics and cognition are my speciality). I am dyslexic,
> dyspraxic and somewhere on the high functioning end of the
> autistic spectrum, but fortunately that does not inhibit my passion > for linguistics to any significant degree :-)

Oh hello again! =A0I recognize that self-description, we talked on IR= C a
few days ago. :)

mi'e .telselkik. mu'o

I act= ually know all that and /I/ got confused reading it. .u'i zo'o
<= br>To be succint regarding tanru, the place structure of the bridi is deter= mined by the tertau, the seltau is only concerned with the x1. So with the = tanru {sutra klama}, the x1 must be both {lo sutra} and {lo klama}, but x2,= x3, x4 and x5 only have to be klama's, sutra doesn't care.

--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le= bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to= the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.
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