From lojban-beginners+bncCIycn8S8DhDt3pzmBBoEL_wmLw@googlegroups.com Tue Oct 26 12:44:05 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PApRA-00035y-38; Tue, 26 Oct 2010 12:44:05 -0700 Received: by qyk1 with SMTP id 1sf1805033qyk.16 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2010 12:43:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=G6O1dbx4gUQZNaXhtfHJskydIsypkG2MwJb/7atkrsE=; b=6D8WwF4jKtrb7AYo3fQM4BeGLtk0TA/aeH9GV1zi49pTQeejY++F/7YJBJ9Ey1zy17 CqlyXHHLLnGrjj0PsvMnZxClYEV+hQMsz6AJMBx+uJq5mH2fLtwC3YbiJyfNO58E+5hk /xiZg5DqzBERYx/eKnUjemNgjbS2rboQmy21Y= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=BLhoGXz6OpHLfyTGdQPOFuI38C/EqKh9fBTecEEdXUcf7l5+HnhMUc6gF5zvv4bdN7 zG2VZLBEE+nCXg0Wv8X5u606oXBDpvptv/GQxr+vSGqaB8sAfqfYeFACi0nYgojUeQFH r6YtSLVxeVtINbHDNApQPAORcS3c4Ph99GX6o= Received: by 10.229.43.139 with SMTP id w11mr407959qce.47.1288122221868; Tue, 26 Oct 2010 12:43:41 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.56.161 with SMTP id y33ls17947qcg.1.p; Tue, 26 Oct 2010 12:43:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.222.20 with SMTP id ie20mr1207613qcb.20.1288122220887; Tue, 26 Oct 2010 12:43:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.222.20 with SMTP id ie20mr1207612qcb.20.1288122220840; Tue, 26 Oct 2010 12:43:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qw0-f50.google.com (mail-qw0-f50.google.com [209.85.216.50]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 3si4448533qci.6.2010.10.26.12.43.39; Tue, 26 Oct 2010 12:43:39 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.50 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.50; Received: by mail-qw0-f50.google.com with SMTP id 4so3071549qwk.9 for ; Tue, 26 Oct 2010 12:43:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.209.69 with SMTP id gf5mr2226254qab.56.1288122219713; Tue, 26 Oct 2010 12:43:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.233.132 with HTTP; Tue, 26 Oct 2010 12:43:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 15:43:39 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] mi kakne lo bajra From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.50 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 2:06 PM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 1:22 PM, Oren wrote: >> Can someone clarify why: >> sentence A: >> { mi kakne lo bajra } >> is not as good as >> sentence B: >> { mi kakne lo nu bajra } >> >> Assuming the rationale is that "nu" is necessary to mark an event/state,= it >> seems to me that since (event/state) is inherent in the x2 argument of >> kakne, that adding the 'nu' would be superfluous. >> Assuming the argument is that it becomes nonsensical to say sentence A, = i.e. >> "You can't say I can runner," I would think that argument is based on >> English concepts of proper grammar, and that there should be no a priori >> reason something like "I can runner" is "nonsensical." >> Or is there some other veciski? >> > > =A0Since the x2 of kakne is an event, the first sentence says you are > capable of some "running event". =A0That is, some event that runs > (whatever that maybe intended to mean), not an event OF running. =A0For > a less confusing contrast: > a)mi kakne lo drata > > b)mi kakne lo nu drata > > =A0The first says "I am capable of other things". =A0The second second > says "I am capable of being different" > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa > To clarify a bit (I was heading out the door when I was wrote the above) -- kakne means "x1 can do an event/state x2 under conditions x3". X2 IS an event or state, regardless of what it might be. If x2 starts with "lo nu", "lo za'i", etc. then it's essentially superfluous (other than to clarify if it's an event or a state). But if it doesn't such as "lo bajra", then it is an event or a state AS WELL AS being a runner. I also might not have been very clear what the difference of my a) and b) above were. So let me give it some context: a) mi bajra .i mi kakne lo drata (I am capable of a event which is differe= nt) b) mi bajra .i mi kakne lo nu drata. (I am capable of the event of me being different) a) I am running. I can do something else (besides running). b) I am running. I can (also) be something other (than what I am, presumably, but not necessarily referring to runningness). --gejyspa --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.