From lojban-beginners+bncCJGY6cDlFhCWwqDmBBoEle1fpQ@googlegroups.com Wed Oct 27 05:55:11 2010 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PB5Wy-0007Sw-QC; Wed, 27 Oct 2010 05:55:11 -0700 Received: by fxm13 with SMTP id 13sf144077fxm.16 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2010 05:54:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:mime-version:received :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=s/gkQfrIPgVwV25vJtozMBvSaC1Jg5QPp2putxs+kjk=; b=vM4BkjEdSbtOwLh/KlnEFgyrqPk+re9HxoQNl2MvKCLjV+yyCCz3Uj2ynULbBSfCw5 CYg+lYELS0SImSVH2pjSMQ6CaTjqSxAyNv4UMiFl2OKVHyZJalHJFFHu0Pq1d/Uzf85d SaXNS+BLBAcG2WMkMbGiEoJvfM84SKl+BrfMA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=xLQRP71+OXp+Lr2zU/oJCh+nHxM0mSSAet61ucmJ0SoVSJX3hx6H+54/Mzm4XG5lUN FSTd7XzLwgzKq34/v4rbW2IkPjDNR1jeAsuabkFbiHDPAyHqwU1kM/wG60xfxShNhDAd auYJWPn7LMue/1hG/bb3PmzIZ5pXftCIqOSbk= Received: by 10.223.71.204 with SMTP id i12mr133137faj.13.1288184086124; Wed, 27 Oct 2010 05:54:46 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.29.18 with SMTP id o18ls300066bkc.3.p; Wed, 27 Oct 2010 05:54:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.24.70 with SMTP id u6mr495222bkb.19.1288184084482; Wed, 27 Oct 2010 05:54:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.24.70 with SMTP id u6mr495221bkb.19.1288184084454; Wed, 27 Oct 2010 05:54:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f41.google.com (mail-bw0-f41.google.com [209.85.214.41]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id z17si4502172bkb.7.2010.10.27.05.54.43; Wed, 27 Oct 2010 05:54:43 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of get.oren@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.41 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.41; Received: by mail-bw0-f41.google.com with SMTP id 16so513092bwz.28 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2010 05:54:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.61.16 with SMTP id r16mr841407bkh.4.1288184083276; Wed, 27 Oct 2010 05:54:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.114.139 with HTTP; Wed, 27 Oct 2010 05:54:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Oren Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 08:54:22 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] mi kakne lo bajra To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: get.oren@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of get.oren@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.41 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=get.oren@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for the replies and explanations! The lo drata / lo nu drata comparison helps a great deal. But I don't yet fully comprehend "X2 IS an event or state, regardless of what it might be. =A0If x2=A0starts with "lo nu", "lo za'i", etc. then it's essentially superfluous (other than to clarify if it's an event or a state). =A0But if it doesn't such as "lo bajra", then it is an event or a state AS WELL AS being a runner." ...Part of me feels like, at least when we look at the English glosses, that the "lo drata/ lo nu drata" example has a readily apparent semantic difference. To help me understand the generality of this contrast, what precisely would be semantically different in the original two cases.=A0It seems to me that the two should be equivalent: Lojban:=A0{ mi kakne lo bajra } Parse: (x1: I) am capable of (x2 [FORCE-EVENT/STATE: "being a"] runner") Gloss: "I'm capable of a running event" English: (I can run) Lojban:=A0{ mi kakne lo nu bajra } Parse: (x1 I) am capable of (x2 [EXPLICIT-EVENT/STATE: "being a"] runner") Gloss: "I'm capable of the event of (me?*) running" English: (I can run) ki'e .i co'o mi'e korbi On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 15:43, Michael Turniansky w= rote: > > =A0I also might not have been very clear what the difference of my a) > and b) above were. =A0 So let me give it some context: > > a) =A0mi bajra .i mi kakne lo drata (I am capable of a event which is dif= ferent) > > b) =A0mi bajra .i mi kakne lo nu drata. =A0(I am capable of the event of > me being different) > > =A0a) I am running. =A0I can do something else (besides running). > =A0b) I am running. =A0I can (also) be something other (than what I am, > presumably, but not necessarily referring to runningness). > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.