From lojban-beginners+bncCJXwn4e6DRDVmaHmBBoEWbnoEw@googlegroups.com Wed Oct 27 09:01:46 2010 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PB8Rb-0003te-8u; Wed, 27 Oct 2010 09:01:46 -0700 Received: by fxm13 with SMTP id 13sf191528fxm.16 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2010 09:01:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:mime-version:received :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=avFY2zzVgt6aNlXpq5tvEfrCDqVkX6Vb+vm5RNlyjmw=; b=BnIHi8k+GsGILqIsQRBNNSrAmPnfB6LA3Pw4cVbdfvUdO+ZZHFmq0dOJYbFpxQVWg6 ZzdUoHSARAYX/qZJw8sET+T8B0soUn/n37Zs1l8U6wUzeFmIrozQ+zvHMLjyk3LY9+gy ex6o+qkAElnMaVMRhMOt5RMeVHeAjWEawX7M4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=NyiQ9D4BOOsIP25BoqtYNnp2go1IG//JlifH/OtMQAFRsL2Idr4fhuT4UxcorIXCui D6CwBppou7u/4Wy0d390q1ipITz6yGW3INkhYw2KLrx34oIzJQhjM6RjyxipVLVSpsmV onMsgDSDhMY+MLFWy05C08PAu3JAOjSnu/2Rc= Received: by 10.223.73.196 with SMTP id r4mr164405faj.47.1288195285219; Wed, 27 Oct 2010 09:01:25 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.223.145.130 with SMTP id d2ls299852fav.1.p; Wed, 27 Oct 2010 09:01:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.95.200 with SMTP id e8mr165481fan.6.1288195284408; Wed, 27 Oct 2010 09:01:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.95.200 with SMTP id e8mr165480fan.6.1288195284394; Wed, 27 Oct 2010 09:01:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f47.google.com (mail-bw0-f47.google.com [209.85.214.47]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 2si710207fat.6.2010.10.27.09.01.23; Wed, 27 Oct 2010 09:01:23 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of adamlopresto@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.47 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.47; Received: by mail-bw0-f47.google.com with SMTP id 10so684987bwz.20 for ; Wed, 27 Oct 2010 09:01:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.104.6 with SMTP id m6mr7601025bko.28.1288195283143; Wed, 27 Oct 2010 09:01:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.62.77 with HTTP; Wed, 27 Oct 2010 09:00:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Adam Lopresto Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2010 11:00:59 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] mi kakne lo bajra To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: adamlopresto@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of adamlopresto@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.47 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=adamlopresto@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To me it sounds like you don't quite understand. It isn't that kakne2 *forces* an event, it's that nothing else makes any sense in that place. In the same way, only things with legs can fit into bajra1. So if you assert *{mi kakne lo bajra} or {lo se kakne cu bajra}, you're talking about something that can fill kakne2 and bajra1 at the same time, that is, something that is an event someone is capable of, that *also* runs on legs on some surface. Since events or states don't have legs, you've ended up with semantic nonsense, though it's fine grammatically. It's not that we add {nu} into {lo bajra} to turn {lo bajra} into an event. Instead, build it from the inside out. {bajra} is a selbri meaning "x1 runs on surface x2 with limbs x3 and gait x4". {nu ... kei} wraps an entire bridi and converts it into a selbri, so {nu [zo'e] bajra [zo'e] [zo'e] [zo'e] [kei]} is a selbri meaning "x1 is an event of someone running on some surface with some gait". Then we convert that to a sumti by surrounding it with {lo ... ku}, to create a sumti that fills the x1 of that, so "some event or events of someone running on some surface with some gait". And that event (and not a runner) is the sort of thing that can fill kakne2. On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 7:54 AM, Oren wrote: > Thanks for the replies and explanations! The lo drata / lo nu drata > comparison helps a great deal. > > But I don't yet fully comprehend "X2 IS an event or state, regardless > of what it might be. =A0If x2=A0starts with "lo nu", "lo za'i", etc. then > it's essentially superfluous > (other than to clarify if it's an event or a state). =A0But if it > doesn't such as "lo bajra", then it is an event or a state AS WELL AS > being a runner." > > ...Part of me feels like, at least when we look at the English > glosses, that the "lo drata/ lo nu drata" example has a readily > apparent semantic difference. To help me understand the generality of > this contrast, what precisely would be semantically different in the > original two cases.=A0It seems to me that the two should be equivalent: > > Lojban:=A0{ mi kakne lo bajra } > Parse: (x1: I) am capable of (x2 [FORCE-EVENT/STATE: "being a"] runner") > Gloss: "I'm capable of a running event" > English: (I can run) > > Lojban:=A0{ mi kakne lo nu bajra } > Parse: (x1 I) am capable of (x2 [EXPLICIT-EVENT/STATE: "being a"] runner"= ) > Gloss: "I'm capable of the event of (me?*) running" > English: (I can run) > > ki'e .i co'o mi'e korbi > > On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 15:43, Michael Turniansky = wrote: >> >> =A0I also might not have been very clear what the difference of my a) >> and b) above were. =A0 So let me give it some context: >> >> a) =A0mi bajra .i mi kakne lo drata (I am capable of a event which is di= fferent) >> >> b) =A0mi bajra .i mi kakne lo nu drata. =A0(I am capable of the event of >> me being different) >> >> =A0a) I am running. =A0I can do something else (besides running). >> =A0b) I am running. =A0I can (also) be something other (than what I am, >> presumably, but not necessarily referring to runningness). >> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscrib= e@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an-beginners?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. 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