From lojban-beginners+bncCJXwn4e6DRCSoabmBBoEjEUMKw@googlegroups.com Thu Oct 28 08:03:11 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PBU0L-0000yp-Gh; Thu, 28 Oct 2010 08:03:11 -0700 Received: by wyb38 with SMTP id 38sf1132872wyb.16 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2010 08:02:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:mime-version:received :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=6oDUFItCh0MyJ3cRqiX2/Mypy0mkewL88VJ9PopHkVo=; b=QX5t+lOzSD78XcyE2CRpqufMT7FAEpDpLrD+E3z/gAPTsU6lCag/rLkcxmT1qk4OP2 NnBiug/8V9wu47eRHM48pY8QwnOYuEXUux/E/ugJBrhCEbRJepVR63fRkTV59rTeDxU7 KZqn9KhZerVEOl3Pr1jYtK80KP1vyqC7Uos58= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=x3Ut7arc6HZrFKrWooDX0lQU6dQODfzJRW9zba68aQNd3A6aGyTLVjfKccbH6w+JfH Ew4B7a5tgFswdt3N080vaslsTnwZLFPJ9I5SxaVdzOMWaRiVVcr+XZk87D5/iU5WPDcu v9+61DMei2XYFnOmtExN6JI8QD5XZOoCzKe90= Received: by 10.216.23.16 with SMTP id u16mr57293weu.9.1288278162976; Thu, 28 Oct 2010 08:02:42 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.14.24.73 with SMTP id w49ls171437eew.4.p; Thu, 28 Oct 2010 08:02:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.29.7 with SMTP id h7mr1140800eea.24.1288278160260; Thu, 28 Oct 2010 08:02:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.29.7 with SMTP id h7mr1140799eea.24.1288278160192; Thu, 28 Oct 2010 08:02:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ew0-f41.google.com (mail-ew0-f41.google.com [209.85.215.41]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id r57si335115eeh.1.2010.10.28.08.02.39; Thu, 28 Oct 2010 08:02:39 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of adamlopresto@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.41 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.215.41; Received: by mail-ew0-f41.google.com with SMTP id 25so1123397ewy.14 for ; Thu, 28 Oct 2010 08:02:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.213.108.139 with SMTP id f11mr403169ebp.23.1288278158864; Thu, 28 Oct 2010 08:02:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.62.77 with HTTP; Thu, 28 Oct 2010 08:02:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20101027160630.GD43996@alice.local> <2b585d63-1def-4797-8c75-453e66cac098@a37g2000yqi.googlegroups.com> <201010280843.15900.jezuch@interia.pl> <2327e11e-c10a-42d4-9e8f-bc3841fd75d9@j33g2000vbb.googlegroups.com> From: Adam Lopresto Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 10:02:16 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: mi kakne lo bajra To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: adamlopresto@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of adamlopresto@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.41 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=adamlopresto@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Again, though, it's *not* about the cmavo, it's about the type of sumti. {lo bajra} is something that runs. {lo nu bajra} is an event. But {lo nandu} is *also* an event. So there's nothing wrong with, say, mi kakne lo nandu be do [be'o] [ku] [vau] I can do things that are hard for you. Now, the most common way to get an event sumti is to use {lo nu}, but all that's relevant is the semantic type of the sumti. With that in mind, (event) and (agent) are pretty much the same, in that they both impose semantic limitations or guidance on what sort of thing makes sense to fill that role. On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 8:23 AM, Oren wrote: > Alright, I understand now. My confusion was motivated in part by my > glosses seeming indistinguishable. The demonstration that {mi kakne lo > bajra } implies {lo se kakne cu bajra } cleared this up for me a great > deal! > > However, I got a bone to pick now! As someone translating the gismu > list into Chinese, I wish I had known that the > (parenthetical/classifiers) before sumti were (sometimes?) > prerequisites for "sensical-ness," and not just helpful guides like > the [square/brackets/of/synonyms] before some sumti are. > > I'm specifically thinking of the linked gismu list found on jbotcan > [http://jbotcan.org/gismulinked.html], where these parenthetical > expressions can range from as precise and seemingly "highly > recommended" as (jo'u) or (ka), to as English and seemingly only for > glossing purposes as (person/object), (event/state) or even (agent). > > I may just be missing something. Are there in fact explicit > recommended markers for *all* (parenthetical/classifiers) on the list > I'm referencing? That is, it seems here that "... (event/state) x2 > ..." means something like "... (use nu or za'i) x2 ..." ...do such > cmavo-prescriptions exist for (event/property/interval/idea) too? And > all the rest? > > I suspect that for things like (object/agent) we may be relying on > gray-area "common sense" distinctions between groups of gismu (i.e. > "Well, that makes no sense because normally tables aren't agents!"), > and not anything formalized-- in which case, I think we should improve > this document to make that clearer, even if it just means explicitly > using cmavo for instances where cmavo are recommended, and leaving the > other (gloss/classifiers) alone. > > Although if we all had more time, I think it would be valuable to come > up with lists of sensical "object/agent/etc" tags for gismu. > > co'o mi'e korbi > > On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 05:34, Lindar wrote: >>> I would not be surprised if hypothetical future native speakers of lojban would find this shortcut very convenient, though... >> >> Is not shortcut, is wrong. >> Not think is good. >> >>>_> >> >> It's not a shortcut, it's just wrong. It means "I'm capable of a >> runner." and that's always what it will mean. Nobody that -actually- >> speaks Lojban would agree with your sentiments. lo bajra will always >> be a runner, and lo nu bajra will always be an event of being a runner >> (or "running"), and the day that it stops working like that is the day >> that I give up on Lojban forever. It would introduce vast amounts of >> ambiguity to have implicit abstractors, and has always been rejected. >> That's called "sumti raising" and is probably worse than malgli. >> >> How would it be a shortcut, anyway? It's one phoneme. >> >> (Sorry for getting huffy. I did this when I was new as well. Just... - >> don't- do it. We do things the way they're done for a very good >> reason, and we've been doing it for at least a score longer than you. >> Rather than suggest we change something, learn why we do it.) >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >> >> > > > > -- > Oren Robinson > (315) 569-2888 > 102 Morrison Ave > Somerville, MA 02144 > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.