From lojban-beginners+bncCMHEmaCOBhC73a_lBBoELhBwGA@googlegroups.com Tue Oct 05 20:36:58 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P3KoH-0002pY-CH; Tue, 05 Oct 2010 20:36:58 -0700 Received: by gya1 with SMTP id 1sf5250429gya.16 for ; Tue, 05 Oct 2010 20:36:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=lOoOjabvr2cK0rIdcoMkp9tLgavCq7WciOKI9tQ9lwA=; b=cxDXsnYr87zQh+qawvN7019/jDVJMoAxSYWULGPRSujx6bgK6mFC3qsTXofgp7gMl+ ncMvd5OH1WVkFTzl1pU166RqSdx1Yv3ZAdxSTEvfxoq+X2Ram0PJ+M9iQl20FgahtxVO VyP9pwFzPMUQyYYj1NXUdzGiv0ak5VnhN6QS8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=FM5PMekIxOKMTCQ1Yyabi/7N5/hpMj4BQVKdhoQVyOLjYXN48nNd/wy+tWBE0AelIP ZWssUC48ntANDkgO1MqdrRXEFtffg4r42vl8DlulCwVbBGU7T+R1s0WAFlL6gn3tpksb kHs4LnN92Q9YoCn+p2JSUId95ijTGOfR/BjL8= Received: by 10.91.105.9 with SMTP id h9mr3227agm.29.1286336187568; Tue, 05 Oct 2010 20:36:27 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.55.74 with SMTP id t10ls3507598ibg.3.p; Tue, 05 Oct 2010 20:36:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.35.77 with SMTP id o13mr2507490ibd.3.1286336186011; Tue, 05 Oct 2010 20:36:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.35.77 with SMTP id o13mr2507489ibd.3.1286336185935; Tue, 05 Oct 2010 20:36:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-iw0-f178.google.com (mail-iw0-f178.google.com [209.85.214.178]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id db12si208209ibb.5.2010.10.05.20.36.24; Tue, 05 Oct 2010 20:36:24 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.178 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.178; Received: by iwn35 with SMTP id 35so13472568iwn.37 for ; Tue, 05 Oct 2010 20:36:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.42.3.65 with SMTP id 1mr15661582icn.78.1286336184726; Tue, 05 Oct 2010 20:36:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.206.16 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Oct 2010 20:36:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 21:36:24 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] A suggestion for the Lojban names of weekdays and months. From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.178 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636e1ecd65a36c20491ea7bfd --001636e1ecd65a36c20491ea7bfd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 9:27 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > I like it. My only comment is, what's wrong with cmevla? Why not make > them .djepav. etc... Given xorxes' other proposal about merging cmevla into > brivla, this wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing (assuming that I understand > his other proposal well enough) and it wouldn't be infringing on the gismu > space (not that I'm all that uncomfortable with that). No reason other than it depends on .xorxes. proposal being approved. Actually, I'm ambivalent about {.djepav.} et al. over {djepa} et al.; as far as I'm concerned they're equivalent, especially in consideration of .xorxes. proposal to merge cmevla with brivla. But, unless and until .xorxes. merger proposal is accepted, cmevla can't have definitions like "{.djepav.} = 'x1 is a Monday of week x2 in month x3'", because as it stands, all cmevla have the same meaning, excepting the tiny detail of what the name is. However, I don't think using {.djepav.} instead is really all that great a benefit, because if we use it, and then for some reason decide to create a meaning for {djepa}, and it doesn't have anything to do with {.djepav.}, I'm certain massive confusions will arise from it. On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 10:54 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > >> (I'm double-posting this to both lojban lists, please respond on the >> beginner's.) >> ----- >> Days: >> ----- >> >> A discussion about the names of the weekdays was recently held in the >> thread "[lojban] la za'e filjvocedra (The Age of Easy Lujvo)", about the >> pros and cons of the two current methods of naming the days of the week - >> one based on numbers, the other on concepts. {pavdei} "1-day" = {lurdei} >> "moon-day", to provide an example. >> >> In this discussion, .xorxes. pointed out that the current number method is >> anti-intuitive, because it seems as though, for example {mumdei} would mean >> "five days", not "fifth day". As corollary, he pointed out two examples: >> {reljeftu}, "fortnight", and {mumymentu}, "five minutes". To quote him, >> "[T]he place structure of {djedi} screams for 'N-dei' to mean {djedi be li >> N}, not {djedi me'e li N}." >> >> Personally, I found this to be a very convincing argument against the use >> of {pavdei} et al. as names of weekdays. It is also, if I am correct, his >> main reason for preferring the concept way. >> >> I, on the other hand, do not like the concept method, for the simple >> reason that I really, really like having a systematic method, and that is >> anything but. After more discussion, I came up with the following, which is >> agreeable to both .xorxes. and me. >> >> It's actually basically the exact same thing as {pavdei}, etc., except >> backwards. So, they would be: >> >> {djeno} "0-day"/{djeze} "7-day" = Sunday >> {djepa} "1-day" = Monday >> {djere} "2-day" = Tuesday >> {djeci} "3-day" = Wednesday >> {djevo} "4-day" = Thursday >> {djemu} "5-day" = Friday >> {djexa} "6-day" = Saturday >> >> All eight of the above words have the exact same meaning as both current >> methods: "x1 is a [weekday name] of week x2 in month x3" >> >> The benefits of this method are that it is logical, systematic, and >> doesn't conflict with spans (as in {mumdei} = "a five day span"). >> >> The con is, obviously, they take up 8 spots in gismu space, which may or >> may not be an atrocity, depending on your viewpoint. >> >> ----- >> Months: >> ----- >> >> Through further discussion, we have also come up with a really good method >> for month-naming. Currently, the only Lojban words we have for the months >> are cmevla, i.e. {.pamast.}, {.remast.}, etc. .xorxes. came up with a really >> good alternative, similar to my idea with the weeks, for each of the months, >> which are the following fu'ivla, based around {lunra}: >> >> {lunrapa} "1-month" = January >> {lunrare} "2-month" = February >> {lunraci} "3-month" = March >> {lunravo} "4-month" = April >> {lunramu} "5-month" = May >> {lunraxa} "6-month" = June >> {lunraze} "7-month" = July >> {lunrabi} "8-month" = August >> {lunraso} "9-month" = September >> {lunradau} "10-month" = October >> {lunrafei} "11-month" = November >> {lunragai} "12-month" = December >> >> This has the advantage over the current cmevla method in that, being >> fu'ivla, we can give them place structure and use them in all the ways cmene >> can NOT be used. I don't see any cons at all, but I may be mistaken. >> >> Since it is .xorxes. idea, I direct you to him for the proposed >> definitions, although I'm certain that it will begin "x1 is month N ...." >> >> ----- >> >> In conclusion, it is my desire to inform the whole of jbogugde about these >> ideas and to get feedback , and to possibly confuse you lot to start using >> them whenever you are talking about days of the week or about months. >> >> Feedback, suggestions, criticisms, praise, and flaming are all welcome and >> appreciated. :D >> >> (I'm double-posting this to both lojban lists, please respond on the >> beginner's.) >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi luk. mi patfu >> do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --001636e1ecd65a36c20491ea7bfd Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Oct 5, 2010 at 9:27 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmai= l.com> wrote:
I like it. =A0My only comment is, what's wrong with cmevla? =A0Why not = make them .djepav. etc... =A0Given xorxes' other proposal about merging= cmevla into brivla, this wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing (assuming= that I understand his other proposal well enough) and it wouldn't be i= nfringing on the gismu space (not that I'm all that uncomfortable with = that).

No reason other than it depends on .xorxes. proposal being approve= d. Actually, I'm ambivalent about {.djepav.} et al. over {djepa} et al.= ; as far as I'm concerned they're equivalent, especially in conside= ration of .xorxes. proposal to merge cmevla with brivla. But, unless and un= til .xorxes. merger proposal is accepted, cmevla can't have definitions= like "{.djepav.} =3D 'x1 is a Monday of week x2 in month x3'&= quot;, because as it stands, all cmevla have the same meaning, excepting th= e tiny detail of what the name is.

However, I don't think using {.djepav.} instead is really all that = great a benefit, because if we use it, and then for some reason decide to c= reate a meaning for {djepa}, and it doesn't have anything to do with {.= djepav.}, I'm certain massive confusions will arise from it.

On Tue, Oct 5,= 2010 at 10:54 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:=
<= /div>
(I'm double-posting this to both lojban lists, please respond on the be= ginner's.)
-----
Days:
-----

A discussion about the nam= es of the weekdays was recently held in the thread "[lojban] la za'= ;e filjvocedra (The Age of Easy Lujvo)", about the pros and cons of th= e two current methods of naming the days of the week - one based on numbers= , the other on concepts. {pavdei} "1-day" =3D {lurdei} "moon= -day", to provide an example.

In this discussion, .xorxes. pointed out that the current number method= is anti-intuitive, because it seems as though, for example {mumdei} would = mean "five days", not "fifth day". As corollary, he poi= nted out two examples: {reljeftu}, "fortnight", and {mumymentu}, = "five minutes". To quote him, "[T]he place structure of {dje= di} screams for 'N-dei' to mean {djedi be li N}, not {djedi me'= e li N}."

Personally, I found this to be a very convincing argument against the u= se of {pavdei} et al. as names of weekdays. It is also, if I am correct, hi= s main reason for preferring the concept way.

I, on the other hand, = do not like the concept method, for the simple reason that I really, really= like having a systematic method, and that is anything but. After more disc= ussion, I came up with the following, which is agreeable to both .xorxes. a= nd me.

It's actually basically the exact same thing as {pavdei}, etc., exc= ept backwards. So, they would be:

{djeno} "0-day"/{djeze} = "7-day" =3D Sunday
{djepa} "1-day" =3D Monday
{dj= ere} "2-day" =3D Tuesday
{djeci} "3-day" =3D Wednesday
{djevo} "4-day" =3D Th= ursday
{djemu} "5-day" =3D Friday
{djexa} "6-day"= =3D Saturday

All eight of the above words have the exact same meani= ng as both current methods: "x1 is a [weekday name] of week x2 in mont= h x3"

The benefits of this method are that it is logical, systematic, and doe= sn't conflict with spans (as in {mumdei} =3D "a five day span"= ;).

The con is, obviously, they take up 8 spots in gismu space, whic= h may or may not be an atrocity, depending on your viewpoint.

-----
Months:
-----

Through further discussion, we have al= so come up with a really good method for month-naming. Currently, the only = Lojban words we have for the months are cmevla, i.e. {.pamast.}, {.remast.}= , etc. .xorxes. came up with a really good alternative, similar to my idea = with the weeks, for each of the months, which are the following fu'ivla= , based around {lunra}:

{lunrapa} "1-month" =3D January
{lunrare} "2-month&qu= ot; =3D February
{lunraci} "3-month" =3D March
{lunravo} &q= uot;4-month" =3D April
{lunramu} "5-month" =3D May
{lu= nraxa} "6-month" =3D June
{lunraze} "7-month" =3D July
{lunrabi} "8-month" = =3D August
{lunraso} "9-month" =3D September
{lunradau} &q= uot;10-month" =3D October
{lunrafei} "11-month" =3D Novem= ber
{lunragai} "12-month" =3D December

This has the advantage over the current cmevla method in that, being fu= 'ivla, we can give them place structure and use them in all the ways cm= ene can NOT be used. I don't see any cons at all, but I may be mistaken= .

Since it is .xorxes. idea, I direct you to him for the proposed definit= ions, although I'm certain that it will begin "x1 is month N ....&= quot;

-----

In conclusion, it is my desire to inform the whol= e of jbogugde about these ideas and to get feedback , and to possibly confu= se you lot to start using them whenever you are talking about days of the w= eek or about months.

Feedback, suggestions, criticisms, praise, and flaming are all welcome = and appreciated. :D

(I'm double-posting this to both lojban list= s, please respond on the beginner's.)

--
mu'o mi'e .= aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi luk= . mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D= )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.



--
mu'o mi'e .aion= ys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i = doi luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your fat= her. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.
--001636e1ecd65a36c20491ea7bfd--