From lojban-beginners+bncCIycn8S8DhCq7rLlBBoE7ueJlQ@googlegroups.com Wed Oct 06 10:52:10 2010 Received: from mail-qw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P3Y9t-0002Iz-R8; Wed, 06 Oct 2010 10:52:10 -0700 Received: by qwa26 with SMTP id 26sf412627qwa.16 for ; Wed, 06 Oct 2010 10:51:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=VxYc2PLJ0AqIMj6RrK9/jaiVmhzvDEsP758HaqOJ2ko=; b=ms6X6JgokIFRyaEAnQyLPv8kxFACHTefy71qF1CuU9I6Ig6QEnVj4bMLGq1hmHbUgG cESuXAOBTrOXg/Ce/3eQkdL4oqGgXq9vcZNSi+k5iyw/F2tnfpYq+JwbsE2UQrNSkjfk GFwgBUI8wtuL8fq6h6xhZwqJfkqUOBDUqR4gs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=ujG3N9+iNekQmgyMontaaWusV50NgbY3xCx0uOdCDeBiZj13EB/CwSUO16iPIGkNTQ CG+k8YW8Fd/gaw0xmNN+DwDWz049RbGDwoW0/UI57boUO03rhK/bTmzcTHoksDJLOFqY MucFEsvNXvmoT6FJjDVwtwtS9ZMAjbHg8cBWc= Received: by 10.229.78.134 with SMTP id l6mr38237qck.45.1286387499005; Wed, 06 Oct 2010 10:51:39 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.177.9 with SMTP id bg9ls1554437qcb.1.p; Wed, 06 Oct 2010 10:51:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.229.10 with SMTP id jg10mr2624685qcb.7.1286387498247; Wed, 06 Oct 2010 10:51:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.229.10 with SMTP id jg10mr2624684qcb.7.1286387498190; Wed, 06 Oct 2010 10:51:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qw0-f45.google.com (mail-qw0-f45.google.com [209.85.216.45]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id y27si101526qce.14.2010.10.06.10.51.37; Wed, 06 Oct 2010 10:51:37 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.45 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.45; Received: by qwk4 with SMTP id 4so4253685qwk.32 for ; Wed, 06 Oct 2010 10:51:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.3.3 with SMTP id 3mr9730109qal.181.1286387495351; Wed, 06 Oct 2010 10:51:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.85.3 with HTTP; Wed, 6 Oct 2010 10:51:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20101006174737.GG24166@alice.local> References: <84c5d2b7-de8e-4789-83f3-f5aebb028d46@g21g2000prn.googlegroups.com> <20101006154504.GC24166@alice.local> <20101006174737.GG24166@alice.local> Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2010 13:51:35 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: A suggestion for the Lojban names of weekdays and months. From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.45 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015175ca7f6b4388e0491f66daf --0015175ca7f6b4388e0491f66daf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 1:47 PM, .alyn.post. wrote: > What makes color superior to phonetic ('a', 'e', ...) progression? > What makes color superior to texture (smooth => rough) progression? > What makes color superior to temperature (cold => hot) progression? > > Or, in a single question, is color sufficiently arbitrary, or is it > equally arbitrary to other sensation scales? I see your argument of > color vs. numbers, but what is the argument for color vs. other > sensory progression? > > -Alan > Ahhh... but that's the beauty of color, it's NOT a "progression". It is a circle. So you don't have one culture saying "it should start on THIS day", and another saying "it should start on THAT day"... That objection aside, I have no preference for ANY circular, culturally unbiased system. It was just the first to be suggested, as opposed to number, which have a beginning and end, just like your examples, and "arbitrary" substance/diety naming. --gejyspa On Wed, Oct 06, 2010 at 01:26:51PM -0400, Luke Bergen wrote: > Ok then, remove that one bullet point. I believe there are still 4 or 5 > other fine points (and one subjective one). If we're going to pick an > arbitrary sequence for defining week-day names, why not color? Are numbers > more sequential than colors on a spectrum? And it avoids the confusion of > "5 day time interval" as opposed to "5th day".... and it isn't a cmevla or > take up gismu space. > Was your suggestion mostly a joke gejyspa or was there any seriousness to > it? > > On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 1:19 PM, Michael Turniansky > > <[1]mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 11:56 AM, Luke Bergen <[2] > lukeabergen@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > Personally, the more I think about it, the more I'm loving > gejyspa's > > skadei > > > suggestion. starting > > with > > > "additionally" and "also" etc... I've opted for bullets> > > > > > > It has the sequential nature that a rational logical system should > > have. > > > It's very flexible for different calendars to invent new day words > > > without necessarily conflicting with other calendars by adding > more > > fine > > > grained color words for more days to a week or more broad color > words > > for > > > fewer days. > > Umm no. Much as I'm proud that you like my suggestion, that will NOT > > work, for the same reason as the original question of xorxes > > (paraphrastically "Isn't it confusing for cultures who use the > different > > numbering schemes?"). If we all agree that today is xundei, then > what is > > 9 days from now? The 7-day weekers will say "peldei, while the 9-day > > weekers will say "xundei". Standards are standard for a reason. My > aim > > was to establish a standard that doesn't conflict with already > existing > > cultural standards. And really, is there much variation in week > length > > around the world currently? It seems that except for the 25 million > > Igbo's traditional 4 day week, we aren't stepping on many > > currently-extant calendrical toes here. And also (I say, > > tongue-in-cheekily), with the widespread availability of colored > > printers, monitors and copiers, we can save room in dates by saying, > for > > example Oct 9, 2010 instead of "Wednesday, Oct 9, 2010" :-) > > Really, is there anything wrong with universal standards? That's why > we > > have timezones, airport codes, radio frequency etc. etc. > > --gejyspa > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. > > To post to this group, send email to > > [3]lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > [4]lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > > For more options, visit this group at > > [5]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > "Lojban Beginners" group. > > To post to this group, send email to > lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > > > > References > > > > Visible links > > 1. mailto:mturniansky@gmail.com > > 2. mailto:lukeabergen@gmail.com > > 3. mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com > > 4. mailto:lojban-beginners%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > 5. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en > > -- > .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --0015175ca7f6b4388e0491f66daf Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 1:47 PM, .alyn.post. <alyn.po= st@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote:
What makes color superior to pho= netic ('a', 'e', ...) progression?
What makes color supe= rior to texture (smooth =3D> rough) progression?
What makes color superior to temperature (cold =3D> hot) progression?
Or, in a single question, is color sufficiently arbitrary, or is itequally arbitrary to other sensation scales? =A0I see your argument of
color vs. numbers, but what is the argument for color vs. other
sensory = progression?

-Alan
=A0
=A0
=A0 Ahhh... but that's the beauty of color, it's NOT a "p= rogression".=A0 It is a circle.=A0 So you don't have one culture s= aying "it should start on THIS day", and another saying "it = should start on THAT day"...
=A0
=A0 That objection aside, I have no preference for ANY circular, cultu= rally unbiased system.=A0 It was just the first to be suggested, as opposed= to number, which have a beginning and end, just like your examples, and &q= uot;arbitrary" substance/diety naming.
=A0
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa

On Wed, Oct 06, 2010 at 01:26:51PM -0400, Luke Bergen wrote:
&g= t; =A0 =A0Ok then, remove that one bullet point. I believe there are still = 4 or 5
> =A0 =A0other fine points (and one subjective one). If we'= ;re going to pick an
> =A0 =A0arbitrary sequence for defining week-day names, why not color? = Are numbers
> =A0 =A0more sequential than colors on a spectrum? And i= t avoids the confusion of
> =A0 =A0"5 day time interval" as= opposed to "5th day".... and it isn't a cmevla or
> =A0 =A0take up gismu space.
> =A0 =A0Was your suggestion mostly = a joke gejyspa or was there any seriousness to
> =A0 =A0it?
>> =A0 =A0On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 1:19 PM, Michael Turniansky
> =A0 =A0<[1]mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
>> =A0 =A0 =A0On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 11:56 AM, Luke Bergen <[2]lukeabergen@gmail.com>
> =A0 =A0 =A0wrote:
> =A0 =A0 =A0> Personally= , the more I think about it, the more I'm loving gejyspa's
> = =A0 =A0 =A0skadei
> =A0 =A0 =A0> suggestion. <after typing out = a long paragraph with sentences starting
> =A0 =A0 =A0with
> =A0 =A0 =A0> "additionally" and &= quot;also" etc... I've opted for bullets>
> =A0 =A0 =A0&g= t;
> =A0 =A0 =A0> It has the sequential nature that a rational log= ical system should
> =A0 =A0 =A0have.
> =A0 =A0 =A0> It's very flexible for di= fferent calendars to invent new day words
> =A0 =A0 =A0> without n= ecessarily conflicting with other calendars by adding more
> =A0 =A0 = =A0fine
> =A0 =A0 =A0> grained color words for more days to a week= or more broad color words
> =A0 =A0 =A0for
> =A0 =A0 =A0> fewer days.
> =A0 =A0 =A0= Umm no. Much as I'm proud that you like my suggestion, that will NOT> =A0 =A0 =A0work, for the same reason as the original question of xorx= es
> =A0 =A0 =A0(paraphrastically "Isn't it confusing for cu= ltures who use the different
> =A0 =A0 =A0numbering schemes?"). If we all agree that today is xu= ndei, then what is
> =A0 =A0 =A09 days from now? The 7-day weekers wi= ll say "peldei, while the 9-day
> =A0 =A0 =A0weekers will say &q= uot;xundei". Standards are standard for a reason. My aim
> =A0 =A0 =A0was to establish a standard that doesn't conflict with = already existing
> =A0 =A0 =A0cultural standards. And really, is ther= e much variation in week length
> =A0 =A0 =A0around the world current= ly? It seems that except for the 25 million
> =A0 =A0 =A0Igbo's traditional 4 day week, we aren't stepping o= n many
> =A0 =A0 =A0currently-extant calendrical toes here. And also = (I say,
> =A0 =A0 =A0tongue-in-cheekily), with the widespread availab= ility of colored
> =A0 =A0 =A0printers, monitors and copiers, we can save room in dates b= y saying, for
> =A0 =A0 =A0example Oct 9, 2010 instead of "Wedne= sday, Oct 9, 2010" :-)
> =A0 =A0 =A0Really, is there anything wr= ong with universal standards? That's why we
> =A0 =A0 =A0have timezones, airport codes, radio frequency etc. etc.> =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0--
> =A0 =A0 = =A0You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
&g= t; =A0 =A0 =A0Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
> =A0 =A0 =A0To post to this group, send email to
> = =A0 =A0 =A0[3]lojban-b= eginners@googlegroups.com.
> =A0 =A0 =A0To unsubscribe from this group, send emai= l to
> =A0 =A0 =A0[4]lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.=
> =A0 =A0 =A0For more options, visit this group at
=
> =A0 =A0 =A0[5]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-b= eginners?hl=3Den.
>
> =A0 =A0--
> =A0 =A0You received this m= essage because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> =A0 =A0"= ;Lojban Beginners" group.
> =A0 =A0To post to this group, send e= mail to lojban-beginne= rs@googlegroups.com.
> =A0 =A0To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> =A0 =A0lojban-beg= inners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> =A0 =A0For more options, v= isit this group at
> =A0 =A0http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl= =3Den.
>
> References
>
> =A0 =A0Visible = links
> =A0 =A01. mailto:mtu= rniansky@gmail.com
> =A0 =A02. mailto:lukeabergen@= gmail.com
> =A0 =A03. mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
> =A0 =A04. ma= ilto:l= ojban-beginners%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> =A0 =A05. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?h= l=3Den

--
.i ko djuno fi le do sevzi

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to t= he Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this gro= up, send email to lojb= an-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://gr= oups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.
--0015175ca7f6b4388e0491f66daf--