From lojban-beginners+bncCIycn8S8DhCdxprnBBoEiJE85A@googlegroups.com Fri Nov 19 08:17:56 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PJTep-0008PF-P2; Fri, 19 Nov 2010 08:17:56 -0800 Received: by qyk1 with SMTP id 1sf6931623qyk.16 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2010 08:17:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=/HOogKsdY87ITvoZuXyvfKgAM9/Hg0JMMZcbT+BedcU=; b=DQWLfngzWhdSc7c/aD4rtWGCfwPB5bdYwYSEhR+iEm/gW4Og2clOrxzvuNcjmvYN39 dRI7VIwJHTrFIQeY0c7WU8wxKPPdF7JmGipg39PPc/ffbCmKMx9BKl4SMFSGDLKtYiP3 4wvjoQnHe3jpkwX2vv2PV+mltC9FVjmYcDCzw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=TYHi6sCC2ZC4YdPNI/xjHoMEQeNz6UZ919VOXmZs9XBU4GkgSE7bqRT/uptb0YFqC2 bk9UziGDFJO56k2EV99W3a0lZUWeqxqIk3ew8qP6XZWwVrI4V+KEeYKwOfIUBILqTggF tm4ayExJt/62A3Vu8ToDJvIvrEF4aDlDQsNYQ= Received: by 10.229.78.207 with SMTP id m15mr234678qck.17.1290183453955; Fri, 19 Nov 2010 08:17:33 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.106.83 with SMTP id w19ls1020133qco.2.p; Fri, 19 Nov 2010 08:17:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.229.246.196 with SMTP id lz4mr269855qcb.26.1290183453234; Fri, 19 Nov 2010 08:17:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.229.246.196 with SMTP id lz4mr269854qcb.26.1290183453193; Fri, 19 Nov 2010 08:17:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vw0-f49.google.com (mail-vw0-f49.google.com [209.85.212.49]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id 3si358273qci.6.2010.11.19.08.17.32; Fri, 19 Nov 2010 08:17:32 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.49 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.49; Received: by vws1 with SMTP id 1so2377028vws.8 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2010 08:17:32 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.184.204 with SMTP id cl12mr873536qcb.228.1290183451848; Fri, 19 Nov 2010 08:17:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.229.219.14 with HTTP; Fri, 19 Nov 2010 08:17:31 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 11:17:31 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: "He was made much of at school." From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.49 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001485f773b057b30a04956a3e50 --001485f773b057b30a04956a3e50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 10:35 AM, Ivo Doko wrote: > On 19 November 2010 16:26, Luke Bergen wrote: > >> We keep coming back to this point and I can't decide which side of the >> fence I lean towards. >> >> I read tanru as X type-of Y. So a {barda gerku} I read as a dog which is >> of type "big" -> a big dog. >> >> But there are some that seem funny. For instance, if I am "the most >> correct" am I fundamentally "superlative" or fundamentally "correct"? In >> other words, am I "the most (type-of) correct" or am I "correct (type-of) >> the most"? >> >> The dog is fundamentally a dog, but he is also big. "big" and "dogness" >> are both attributes that he possesses. How do we determine that his >> fundamental essence is "dogness" and not "bigness" though? If we could >> quantify that I would be much happier being firmly planted on one side of >> the fence or the other. >> > > In "the most correct", "the most" explains how "correct" you are, not the > other way 'round. Therefore what's essential there is correctness, not > superlativeness (although in this example it makes little sense because you > can't be more and less correct, you can be correct or not correct, but let's > play along). Which of these is more essential is rather simple to test - > leave one of the two out and see which version is closer to the meaning of > the original sentence. In this example: > > "I am the most correct." > > 1) "I am the most." > 2) "I am correct." > > 2 is closer in meaning to the original than 1 (plus 1 doesn't really make > sense), therefore "correct" is more essential than "the most" > That may be the case in English but in lojban, we have the fact that "traji" carries with it a property piece, wheras "drani" does not carry with it a corresponding "degree" piece. Therefore, it behooves us in lojban to make "traji" the main bridi in that case. --gejyspa -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --001485f773b057b30a04956a3e50 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 10:35 AM, Ivo Doko <ivo.doko@gmail.com> wrote:
On 19 November 2010 16:26, Luke Bergen = <lukeabergen@= gmail.com> wrote:
We keep coming back = to this point and I can't decide which side of the fence I lean towards= .=20

I read tanru as X type-of Y. =A0So a {barda gerku} I read as a dog whi= ch is of type "big" -> a big dog.

But there are some that seem funny. =A0For instance, if I am "the= most correct" am I fundamentally "superlative" or fundament= ally "correct"? In other words, am I "the most (type-of) cor= rect" or am I "correct (type-of) the most"?

The dog is fundamentally a dog, but he is also big. =A0"big"= and "dogness" are both attributes that he possesses. =A0How do w= e determine that his fundamental essence is "dogness" and not &qu= ot;bigness" though? =A0If we could quantify that I would be much happi= er being firmly planted on one side of the fence or the other.

In "the most correct", "the most" explains how= "correct" you are, not the other way 'round. Therefore what&= #39;s essential there is correctness, not superlativeness (although in this= example it makes little sense because you can't be more and less corre= ct, you can be correct or not correct, but let's play along). Which of = these is more essential is rather simple to test - leave one of the two out= and see which version is closer to the meaning of the original sentence. I= n this example:

"I am the most correct."

1) "I am the most."=
2) "I am correct."

2 is closer in meaning to the origi= nal than 1 (plus 1 doesn't really make sense), therefore "correct&= quot; is more essential than "the most"
=A0
=A0
=A0 That may be the case in English but in lojban, we have the fact th= at "traji" carries with it a property piece, wheras "drani&q= uot; does not carry with it a corresponding "degree" piece.=A0 Th= erefore, it behooves us in lojban to make "traji" the main bridi = in that case.
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 = --gejyspa
=A0

--
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