From lojban-beginners+bncCIycn8S8DhCm2prnBBoEQLEUPg@googlegroups.com Fri Nov 19 09:00:45 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PJUKG-0003Ju-CD; Fri, 19 Nov 2010 09:00:45 -0800 Received: by qyk1 with SMTP id 1sf6981656qyk.16 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2010 09:00:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=SguqRkEJbXHOy6W9FOFQJkSqGfgI92YvlHINgUR1wFk=; b=ulebYdKuSkUuO7lDMPaytZapTR0InkKx173Wrr6n75GptgaFNlWk8mA9n6m1NsaK1b heqBH56p16QMP4pG18aibKWATmioYCJDcPcgkR67iiedfRYcw4PfM/qAzjn6e99zd42d HOowyHrItF6Oom7aY6j8Z1KylnrT2BhQV51eY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=cAdFAodGYPfYykmYQYCAKx6eE+w1BWrw9uXwYxJc0Yv6RyOKfX6jgO8LpXWcMEmKu8 jMxT0scrNmThH8rAIWZ48ZesZr/s0Z0yHRLwS398dX7bgqntXgwS+aWtD9leM7hl4bIA SDFkqC1/H2dPRhf1YSBTk+Ui2Lccjloi5UOls= Received: by 10.229.43.66 with SMTP id v2mr242739qce.18.1290186022715; Fri, 19 Nov 2010 09:00:22 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.126.81 with SMTP id b17ls585897qas.4.p; Fri, 19 Nov 2010 09:00:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.224.45.130 with SMTP id e2mr213905qaf.11.1290186022146; Fri, 19 Nov 2010 09:00:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.224.45.130 with SMTP id e2mr213904qaf.11.1290186022072; Fri, 19 Nov 2010 09:00:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qy0-f174.google.com (mail-qy0-f174.google.com [209.85.216.174]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id ey28si365181qcb.15.2010.11.19.09.00.21; Fri, 19 Nov 2010 09:00:21 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.174 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.174; Received: by mail-qy0-f174.google.com with SMTP id 32so230978qyk.19 for ; Fri, 19 Nov 2010 09:00:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.215.213 with SMTP id hf21mr1982644qcb.189.1290186019943; Fri, 19 Nov 2010 09:00:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.229.219.14 with HTTP; Fri, 19 Nov 2010 09:00:19 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 12:00:19 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: "He was made much of at school." From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.174 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e64c2dce69c67b04956ad7d6 --0016e64c2dce69c67b04956ad7d6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sometimes, but sometimes they are not. And even the exact SAME tanru can mean different things at different times. Tanru are inherently ambiguous. That being said, "la tam barda gerku" states that Tom is a dog, of a type that is "big somehow related to dog". The usual conclusion (and it may not be the right one) is "la tam gerku .ije la tam barda fi lo gerku". "la tam gerku barda" however means that Tom is a big thing, and that bigness is of type "dog that is somehow related to being a big thing". Hence that is usually interpreted as "la tam barda fi lo gerku", Tom is big when compared to dogs. (He is big-dog sized). --gejyspa On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:50 AM, Luke Bergen wrote: > Actually it means that he is the most at being the most :-p > > But you catch my drift. It seems like there are many lujvo that maybe have > an elided {je} and there's really no telling whether it's a {broda zei > brode} or a {brode zei broda}. Or maybe the difference between the two > is negligible. > > On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:47 AM, Michael Turniansky < > mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Pretty good argument. But there is one problem with that. "la tam >> cu barda fi lo gerku" means that Tom is big for a dog, but it doesn't mean >> that he necessarily IS a dog. He could be a chicken who is bigger than an >> average dog. Whereas "la tam cu traji lo ka traji" means that Tom is both >> superlative and correct. >> >> --gejyspa >> >> >> >> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:33 AM, Luke Bergen wrote: >> >>> see herein lies the confusion (for me anyway). I could use a similar >>> argument about lo barda gerku. {barda} has an x3 place for the "norm" >>> compared against which the object is big. {gerku} has no place to denote >>> size, so maybe it should be {lo gerku barda}? I'm reductio ad absurdam-ing >>> here so don't take this as a proposal that "the big dog" should be >>> translated "lo gerku barda". I'm just trying to get my finger on the >>> precise way of deciding what the "principle" component of a tanru * >>> should* be. >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Ivo Doko wrote: >>> >>>> On 19 November 2010 17:17, Michael Turniansky wrote: >>>>> >>>>> That may be the case in English but in lojban, we have the fact >>>>> that "traji" carries with it a property piece, wheras "drani" does not carry >>>>> with it a corresponding "degree" piece. Therefore, it behooves us in lojban >>>>> to make "traji" the main bridi in that case. >>>>> --gejyspa >>>>> >>>> >>>> Well then that. >>>> >>>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --0016e64c2dce69c67b04956ad7d6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=A0=A0 Sometimes, but sometimes they are not.=A0 And even the exact SA= ME tanru can mean different things at different times.=A0 Tanru are inheren= tly ambiguous.=A0 That being said, "la tam barda gerku" states th= at Tom is a dog, of a type that is "big somehow related to dog".= =A0 The usual conclusion (and it may not be the right one) is "la tam = gerku .ije la tam barda fi lo gerku".=A0 "la tam gerku barda"= ; however means that Tom is a big thing, and that bigness is of=A0type &quo= t;dog=A0that is somehow related to being a big thing".=A0 Hence that i= s usually interpreted as "la tam barda fi lo gerku", Tom is big w= hen compared to dogs.=A0 (He is big-dog sized).
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa

=A0
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:50 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gm= ail.com> wrote:
Actually it means that he is the= most at being the most :-p=20

But you catch my drift. =A0It seems like there are many lujvo that= maybe have an elided {je} and there's really no telling whether it'= ;s a {broda zei brode} or a {brode zei broda}. =A0Or maybe the difference b= etween the two is=A0negligible.

On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:47 AM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
=A0 Pretty good argument.=A0 But there is one problem with that.=A0 &q= uot;la tam cu barda fi lo gerku" means that Tom is big for a dog, but = it doesn't mean that he necessarily IS a dog.=A0 He could be a chicken = who is bigger than an average dog.=A0 Whereas "la tam cu traji lo ka t= raji" means that Tom is both superlative and correct.
=A0
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa


=A0
On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:33 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
see herein lies the confusion (f= or me anyway). =A0I could use a similar argument about lo barda gerku. =A0{= barda} has an x3 place for the "norm" compared against which the = object is big. =A0{gerku} has no place to denote size, so maybe it should b= e {lo gerku barda}? =A0I'm reductio ad absurdam-ing here so don't t= ake this as a proposal that "the big dog" should be translated &q= uot;lo gerku barda". =A0I'm just trying to get my finger on the pr= ecise way of deciding what the "principle" component of a tanru <= i>should=A0be.=20


On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Ivo Doko <iv= o.doko@gmail.com> wrote:
On 19 November 2010 17:17, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:=A0=20
=A0 That may be the case in English but in lojban, we have the fact th= at "traji" carries with it a property piece, wheras "drani&q= uot; does not carry with it a corresponding "degree" piece.=A0 Th= erefore, it behooves us in lojban to make "traji" the main bridi = in that case.
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 = --gejyspa

Well then that.=20

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