From lojban-beginners+bncCIycn8S8DhDm-97nBBoEEtKhVA@googlegroups.com Thu Dec 02 07:40:43 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1POBGx-0003pF-N8; Thu, 02 Dec 2010 07:40:43 -0800 Received: by qyk1 with SMTP id 1sf18041856qyk.16 for ; Thu, 02 Dec 2010 07:40:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Sw+2rUUJZ+CqE9n0fV4zo4GLwEpRzXN0i/REDHyWn4Y=; b=T5+PPDi0bFOykfYYmXBWArndk4ajbWqFFb5nRVVOBYneus1GfiaMby0E8pBW90nrGD k8kDI4kpQXN9/m9+BkyoiB8N9rXyeg6iDTmXOxGmYHEJFCv+F8+fTt6jqxSpmvSUUUcR FRbQmfGXzwcTBBcghOQBbc+elenZgdifp0zYU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=nliUw2F3azwPOThWc1QDRc7bwQkSkVUm7ougFRBosHE8nF1htWlR+yWiefU8eAJF7W eZVnvnwjPkQRbZ9WBVaM03Vo5LtX+3PtdgYtL+yOYdq0N+SE/UvEzA6KPfNzTZ+rLbeV 89uqwSGqz9+nMNDuMRYTK4/lPYx7g76fSVI/0= Received: by 10.229.44.3 with SMTP id y3mr33304qce.38.1291304422764; Thu, 02 Dec 2010 07:40:22 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.106.83 with SMTP id w19ls2992299qco.2.p; Thu, 02 Dec 2010 07:40:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.229.86.74 with SMTP id r10mr27795qcl.12.1291304421884; Thu, 02 Dec 2010 07:40:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.229.86.74 with SMTP id r10mr27794qcl.12.1291304421837; Thu, 02 Dec 2010 07:40:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qw0-f44.google.com (mail-qw0-f44.google.com [209.85.216.44]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id j6si151642qcu.2.2010.12.02.07.40.20; Thu, 02 Dec 2010 07:40:20 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.44 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.44; Received: by mail-qw0-f44.google.com with SMTP id 5so7061778qwg.3 for ; Thu, 02 Dec 2010 07:40:20 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.247.68 with SMTP id mb4mr156029qcb.151.1291304420691; Thu, 02 Dec 2010 07:40:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.229.219.14 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Dec 2010 07:40:20 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 10:40:20 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Day standard From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.44 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 10:10 AM, Alex Rozenshteyn wr= ote: > I was under the impression that, pre-xorlo, {lo ctufau} must be a _real_ > lesson, but post-xorlo it's something to do with a lesson, determined fro= m > context. Hmm.. perhaps you are correct. Perhaps I've just internalized xorlo so much that I don't realize I'm doing so. But I'm not sure. > > Since a standard is not a lesson, (how would I say that in lojban?) one > might have had to say something like {lo ctufau manri}; otherwise, I feel > like some sort of implicit raising is occurring. > > As for pointing to a dog:=A0 you're not requiring that something which is > really a dog fill the selbri place of the bridi, so {ta barda} is just fi= ne. Well, I agree with that, which is why I amended that to the "mi cadzu lo clani" example. The "lo clani" is definitely a surface to walk on, whether or not I say so explicitly, since it's a se cadzu. So the question is does it imply that the thing that I'm walking on is clani in all other contexts other than a clani se cadzu? So, let's cast the sentence differently. Could I say (pre-xorlo) "mi cadzu lo danlu" to mean that I'm walking down on animal tracks, or a path made by animals? The same answer should apply to the original "lo ctufau" question. If you would answer (as I anticipate you would) that pre-xorlo the answer is "no", then the pre-xorlo solution to both is the same -- change "lo" to "le". Then we are making no veridical claims, and are purely being descriptive. --gejyspa > > On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 7:56 AM, Michael Turniansky > wrote: >> >> On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 6:45 PM, Alex Rozenshteyn >> wrote: >> > It seems to me that {bavlamdei be fi lo ctufau} is only permissible du= e >> > to >> > xorlo.=A0 Is there a more precise way to fill in the "by standard x"? >> > >> =A0I don't know on what basis you say that. I think perhaps you are >> thinking about it as a natlang speaker. =A0Xorlo or not, when you put >> something in the x3 of bavlamdei, for example, it is _by definition_ >> some type of manri. "lo ctufau" simply specifies what type of manri it >> is -- it's a ctufau manri. =A0I could explicitly _say_ "lo ctufau >> manri", but it's not necessary, and more than it's necessary, when >> pointing to a dog, to say "ta barda gerku" instead of "ta barda". >> Doesn't make it any less of a dog, you're just calling out the salient >> feature you want to express, that it's big. =A0Describing a te bavlamdei >> as a ctufau doesn't make it any less of a te bavlamdei. >> >> =A0I'm probably not expressing myself reall well, but I hope my point >> is getting across. =A0(Perhaps it would make more sense if I used a more >> analgous sentence, like "mi cadzu lo clani"?) >> >> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. >> > > > > -- > =A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.