From lojban-beginners+bncCOib25n_BhC2j9_nBBoEJd7Pvw@googlegroups.com Thu Dec 02 08:22:38 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1POBvU-0000pl-Qv; Thu, 02 Dec 2010 08:22:38 -0800 Received: by wyb35 with SMTP id 35sf6692004wyb.16 for ; Thu, 02 Dec 2010 08:22:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=hL/AUAlTemRI8QIpkCRDcQbwHtNn39nUQ+Qm8F7OVVs=; b=L1jWAkNOMVWPg/hQ03VMg0DKjwJj8XtPWqBXsH6HBR5UQgGDs1kB/A1RfsFX5+iOSq oWhffLDPQbRygIQ7JS5pDAyFSKO36VrFSxQLacCt2euWIX5ykrkKpfpS6y8zK+v1rxmc JmDvqwo1eH67BngtlKdp6Oqs6334h3UJ0+epA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=RPh0/3av5+z+nNl3M6BeBliOBRQbkB6A7PhCoKLksNmmSXOad5JGD2UVbNQcjpqLVX lQMBdZJ19QmsJe9q4VwfXJe/R8O6BgvTZTJ0V9roGRpqiXJP621Bz0ZU4CU1uSq4Gr3O pD9c0ljTnw4h6Mnd/opN+VkOqNnwUKSVmGP/c= Received: by 10.216.10.65 with SMTP id 43mr693213weu.22.1291306934631; Thu, 02 Dec 2010 08:22:14 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.14.26.28 with SMTP id b28ls1137630eea.5.p; Thu, 02 Dec 2010 08:22:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.14.119.195 with SMTP id n43mr57368eeh.3.1291306932720; Thu, 02 Dec 2010 08:22:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.14.119.195 with SMTP id n43mr57367eeh.3.1291306932664; Thu, 02 Dec 2010 08:22:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ew0-f48.google.com (mail-ew0-f48.google.com [209.85.215.48]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id t6si224095eeh.4.2010.12.02.08.22.11; Thu, 02 Dec 2010 08:22:11 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.48 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.215.48; Received: by mail-ew0-f48.google.com with SMTP id 9so4324142ewy.21 for ; Thu, 02 Dec 2010 08:22:11 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.16.197 with SMTP id p5mr1058754eba.73.1291306931389; Thu, 02 Dec 2010 08:22:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.213.14.137 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Dec 2010 08:22:11 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2010 11:22:11 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Day standard From: Alex Rozenshteyn To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: rpglover64@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.48 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rpglover64@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174c11f2f1069204966fd22c --0015174c11f2f1069204966fd22c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I would assume that pre-xorlo {mi cadzu lo danlu} would be correct if I were actually walking on an animal (say a giant turtle) and not on animal tracks. I question the validity of changing lo to le, though; to me, {le danlu} is "thing/things which I am thinking about and which are in my thoughts animal(s)". On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 10:40 AM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 10:10 AM, Alex Rozenshteyn > wrote: > > I was under the impression that, pre-xorlo, {lo ctufau} must be a _real_ > > lesson, but post-xorlo it's something to do with a lesson, determined > from > > context. > > Hmm.. perhaps you are correct. Perhaps I've just internalized xorlo > so much that I don't realize I'm doing so. But I'm not sure. > > > > > Since a standard is not a lesson, (how would I say that in lojban?) one > > might have had to say something like {lo ctufau manri}; otherwise, I feel > > like some sort of implicit raising is occurring. > > > > As for pointing to a dog: you're not requiring that something which is > > really a dog fill the selbri place of the bridi, so {ta barda} is just > fine. > > Well, I agree with that, which is why I amended that to the "mi > cadzu lo clani" example. The "lo clani" is definitely a surface to > walk on, whether or not I say so explicitly, since it's a se cadzu. > So the question is does it imply that the thing that I'm walking on is > clani in all other contexts other than a clani se cadzu? So, let's > cast the sentence differently. Could I say (pre-xorlo) "mi cadzu lo > danlu" to mean that I'm walking down on animal tracks, or a path made > by animals? The same answer should apply to the original "lo ctufau" > question. If you would answer (as I anticipate you would) that > pre-xorlo the answer is "no", then the pre-xorlo solution to both is > the same -- change "lo" to "le". Then we are making no veridical > claims, and are purely being descriptive. > --gejyspa > > > > > On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 7:56 AM, Michael Turniansky < > mturniansky@gmail.com> > > wrote: > >> > >> On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 6:45 PM, Alex Rozenshteyn > > >> wrote: > >> > It seems to me that {bavlamdei be fi lo ctufau} is only permissible > due > >> > to > >> > xorlo. Is there a more precise way to fill in the "by standard x"? > >> > > >> I don't know on what basis you say that. I think perhaps you are > >> thinking about it as a natlang speaker. Xorlo or not, when you put > >> something in the x3 of bavlamdei, for example, it is _by definition_ > >> some type of manri. "lo ctufau" simply specifies what type of manri it > >> is -- it's a ctufau manri. I could explicitly _say_ "lo ctufau > >> manri", but it's not necessary, and more than it's necessary, when > >> pointing to a dog, to say "ta barda gerku" instead of "ta barda". > >> Doesn't make it any less of a dog, you're just calling out the salient > >> feature you want to express, that it's big. Describing a te bavlamdei > >> as a ctufau doesn't make it any less of a te bavlamdei. > >> > >> I'm probably not expressing myself reall well, but I hope my point > >> is getting across. (Perhaps it would make more sense if I used a more > >> analgous sentence, like "mi cadzu lo clani"?) > >> > >> --gejyspa > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >> "Lojban Beginners" group. > >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > >> For more options, visit this group at > >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Alex R > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > > -- Alex R -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --0015174c11f2f1069204966fd22c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would assume that pre-xorlo {mi cadzu lo danlu} would be correct if I wer= e actually walking on an animal (say a giant turtle) and not on animal trac= ks.

I question the validity of changing lo to le, though; to me, {le= danlu} is "thing/things which I am thinking about and which are in my= thoughts animal(s)".

On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 10:40 AM, Michael Tur= niansky <mtur= niansky@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 10:10 AM, Alex Rozenshteyn <rpglover64@gmail.com> wrote: > I was under the impression that, pre-xorlo, {lo ctufau} must be a _rea= l_
> lesson, but post-xorlo it's something to do with a lesson, determi= ned from
> context.

=A0Hmm.. perhaps you are correct. =A0Perhaps I've just internali= zed xorlo
so much that I don't realize I'm doing so. =A0But I'm not sure.=

>
> Since a standard is not a lesson, (how would I say that in lojban?) on= e
> might have had to say something like {lo ctufau manri}; otherwise, I f= eel
> like some sort of implicit raising is occurring.
>
> As for pointing to a dog:=A0 you're not requiring that something w= hich is
> really a dog fill the selbri place of the bridi, so {ta barda} is just= fine.

=A0Well, I agree with that, which is why I amended that to the "= ;mi
cadzu lo clani" example. =A0The "lo clani" is definitely a s= urface to
walk on, whether or not I say so explicitly, since it's a se cadzu.
So the question is does it imply that the thing that I'm walking on is<= br> clani in all other contexts other than a clani se cadzu? =A0So, let's cast the sentence differently. =A0Could I say (pre-xorlo) "mi cadzu lo=
danlu" to mean that I'm walking down on animal tracks, or a path m= ade
by animals? =A0The same answer should apply to the original "lo ctufau= "
question. =A0If you would answer (as I anticipate you would) that
pre-xorlo the answer is "no", then the pre-xorlo solution to both= is
the same -- change "lo" to "le". =A0Then we are making = no veridical
claims, and are purely being descriptive.
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa

>
> On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 7:56 AM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 6:45 PM, Alex Rozenshteyn <rpglover64@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > It seems to me that {bavlamdei be fi lo ctufau} is only permi= ssible due
>> > to
>> > xorlo.=A0 Is there a more precise way to fill in the "by= standard x"?
>> >
>> =A0I don't know on what basis you say that. I think perhaps yo= u are
>> thinking about it as a natlang speaker. =A0Xorlo or not, when you = put
>> something in the x3 of bavlamdei, for example, it is _by definitio= n_
>> some type of manri. "lo ctufau" simply specifies what ty= pe of manri it
>> is -- it's a ctufau manri. =A0I could explicitly _say_ "l= o ctufau
>> manri", but it's not necessary, and more than it's ne= cessary, when
>> pointing to a dog, to say "ta barda gerku" instead of &q= uot;ta barda".
>> Doesn't make it any less of a dog, you're just calling out= the salient
>> feature you want to express, that it's big. =A0Describing a te= bavlamdei
>> as a ctufau doesn't make it any less of a te bavlamdei.
>>
>> =A0I'm probably not expressing myself reall well, but I hope m= y point
>> is getting across. =A0(Perhaps it would make more sense if I used = a more
>> analgous sentence, like "mi cadzu lo clani"?)
>>
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= Groups
>> "Lojban Beginners" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den= .
>>
>
>
>
> --
> =A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R
>

--
You received this message because you are= subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.




--
=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
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