From lojban-beginners+bncCJKRpP31BRCqp-zpBBoEjiaGAg@googlegroups.com Sat Jan 22 09:28:37 2011 Received: from mail-yw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PghGG-0003LL-SL; Sat, 22 Jan 2011 09:28:36 -0800 Received: by ywh1 with SMTP id 1sf2209595ywh.16 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2011 09:28:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:mime-version:date:in-reply-to:x-ip :references:user-agent:x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=OqjdGGf+hsmTJ6h6N1GlJnhNpKMf9ibkh6/UXlWLBNs=; b=snm5RWqCUeRCwVONdtwUYrLj/Xjl6I9HeFKmATqPX5SZU9mGxMC71idx3Ot/eeyGfV 4gIUX422ik8YMgOvNZWNA9oDqxomLL0rgbH7f6rUT4OGnbPYM4nGPJVgV8j7MOiRCG5G vbqBlsyEQA+9nhfQO0IngT911fUZua9xqUGyM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:date:in-reply-to:x-ip:references :user-agent:x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=PmxFRuCUNCpRtg5s0lwimDrJj+nL5HCjAvpPmgCpLVclNnWh/ftph4H7vMf6NbiX4m R1oKmsnXfNFJF1tdYBwmwzFTAeXbAJKQDAV63Q3Cz/vc9DLWDsuZJ1ezxnjRsR2Xm7X9 Ci6Mv18VLKOyYu/ey0Q1LpFV61mreQV6A4wZI= Received: by 10.150.144.20 with SMTP id r20mr214435ybd.69.1295717290963; Sat, 22 Jan 2011 09:28:10 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.150.197.14 with SMTP id u14ls985414ybf.7.p; Sat, 22 Jan 2011 09:28:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.150.95.5 with SMTP id s5mr891495ybb.37.1295717290102; Sat, 22 Jan 2011 09:28:10 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.91.163.27 with SMTP id q27mr158975ago.57.1295717158354; Sat, 22 Jan 2011 09:25:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by o4g2000yqd.googlegroups.com with HTTP; Sat, 22 Jan 2011 09:25:58 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2011 09:25:58 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: X-IP: 68.142.57.136 References: <7a56acc4-c2ce-47fe-ba09-b1f6a61eb59d@c39g2000yqi.googlegroups.com> <4D39AB52.7000207@perpetuum-immobile.de> User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US) AppleWebKit/534.16 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/10.0.642.2 Safari/534.16,gzip(gfe) Message-ID: <63eeb85f-de22-4301-9edd-161e7fa817f1@o4g2000yqd.googlegroups.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Questions on the sounds chosen for Lojban From: Zifre To: Lojban Beginners X-Original-Sender: kmicklas@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just thought I'd point out that, at least for American English speakers (I don't know about other accents), the "i" in "bite" is not the same as Lojban "ai". If it were allowed in Lojban, I'd say it sounds more like "yi". However, some words do have a Lojban "ai" sound, for example, "pie". I'm sure there must be some rule to figure this out (they are allophones in English), but I'm not sure what it is. mu'o mi'e zif On 21 ene, 11:42, Luke Bergen wrote: > Really? =A0I pronounce lojban {e} as in "b[e]t" which is a completely > different sound from "b[a]t" I think. =A0Both of which are different from > "b[i]t". > > The choice to leave out some vowels kind of annoyed me at first as well, = OP. > =A0But I grew to accept if after realizing that lack of some vowel sounds= is > acceptable if it's in the name of having unique phonemes for each vowel. > =A0You can get SOME of your favorite vowel sounds back with diphthongs li= ke > {ai} =3D "b[i]te", {ei} =3D "w[a]y", {oi} =3D "t[oy]", {au} =3D "h[ow]", = etc... > > But those actually make sense given the component vowels that make up the > diphthong. =A0If you say lojban {a} and quickly roll into {u} it comes of= f > sounding like english "ow". > > But there are only 6 vowel letters and there are (off the top of my head)= 8 > fundamental vowel sounds that can't be constructed from diphthongs of oth= er > vowels. =A0These are lojban a, e, i, o, u, and y plus the english b[a]t a= nd > b[i]t. > > If we wanted those sounds, we'd have to add new letterals or assign un-us= ed > diphthongs to these two "missing" vowels. =A0I'd be comfortable with the = first > option because it would only expand the potential word space. =A0But the > second option seems very un-lojbanic and I'd fight it tooth-and-nail :) > > As for the two "th" sounds... well, there are a ton of consonant-like sou= nds > that didn't make it into lojban. =A0We can't get them all in there. =A0I = seem to > remember hearing an argument against [th]e that went something like "many > languages don't have that sound and it is extremely difficult to pronounc= e > for people who haven't grown up with it". > > On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 10:50 AM, Timo Paulssen < > > > > > > > > timona...@perpetuum-immobile.de> wrote: > > On 01/21/2011 07:41 AM, Greendogo wrote: > > > I was wondering what criteria was chosen for the sounds used in > > > Lojban. > > > Hello! > > > Even though I don't know about the criteria for the choices, I hope i > > can help you with this mail. > > > > For instance, why was the German sound used for "x" used, but the > > > sounds [th]ink, [th]e, b[a]t, and b[i]t were not? > > > [th] is a valid pronunciation of {'} and the a in bat is a lot like > > lojbans {e}. > > > mu'o mi'e timos > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps > > "Lojban Beginners" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > . > > For more options, visit this group at > >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.