From lojban-beginners+bncCMHEmaCOBhCKqezpBBoE2_Jtvw@googlegroups.com Sat Jan 22 09:32:16 2011 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PghJs-0003Sn-BP; Sat, 22 Jan 2011 09:32:16 -0800 Received: by yxn35 with SMTP id 35sf2222139yxn.16 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2011 09:32:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=gKYBo+XhTuu7Dwxlzjor2Ja7tf0AqJJzCfy7p26Uav8=; b=FY+HSOot2+4GmEP58MFRkZsjzXRyl7jbUoUsf1he0G/y1qZCr+F0KRQA31fjoVGjnX oUYNs27ipjyK+agWj48X4VhUqRb8hPC/LSWVJvDinZ0ptVBZ4tOpCXx26Gh7aYgRsyEl s+nm+KOVpq3ISEAwu3JjRkOQQ4dvGYth7fW2U= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=U8N0bXgm3yKesZOPCesYOgfNhQd5XrRBQykr4RdVLSBSHg0JO6L7cnhgSUMqwb8uZa OA/ch4iTtMapbN74LtGCkdWcDZlSWoy0nisrcQyNuHHytVyqLxWP9V7jKOYyENeURTQT LEQsZKXJq9XB+DYmXawHSwhpZLPlf2nW7jmt0= Received: by 10.91.121.11 with SMTP id y11mr162959agm.0.1295717514860; Sat, 22 Jan 2011 09:31:54 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.57.97 with SMTP id b33ls3118445ibh.0.p; Sat, 22 Jan 2011 09:31:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.35.13 with SMTP id n13mr786376ibd.9.1295717514122; Sat, 22 Jan 2011 09:31:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.35.13 with SMTP id n13mr786375ibd.9.1295717514085; Sat, 22 Jan 2011 09:31:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iw0-f169.google.com (mail-iw0-f169.google.com [209.85.214.169]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id jo1si1195319icb.1.2011.01.22.09.31.53 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sat, 22 Jan 2011 09:31:53 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.169 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.169; Received: by iwn40 with SMTP id 40so3255457iwn.0 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2011 09:31:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.208.8 with SMTP id ga8mr2433014ibb.1.1295717512666; Sat, 22 Jan 2011 09:31:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.199.2 with HTTP; Sat, 22 Jan 2011 09:31:52 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <63eeb85f-de22-4301-9edd-161e7fa817f1@o4g2000yqd.googlegroups.com> References: <7a56acc4-c2ce-47fe-ba09-b1f6a61eb59d@c39g2000yqi.googlegroups.com> <4D39AB52.7000207@perpetuum-immobile.de> <63eeb85f-de22-4301-9edd-161e7fa817f1@o4g2000yqd.googlegroups.com> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2011 10:31:52 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Questions on the sounds chosen for Lojban From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.169 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0023547c9847126002049a72bea1 --0023547c9847126002049a72bea1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I'm an American, and I most certainly pronounce "bite" as {bait}, just as I pronounce "pie" as {pai}. I can't even pronounce "yi", assuming you're using the Lojban pronunciation, "uh-ee", On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 10:25 AM, Zifre wrote: > I just thought I'd point out that, at least for American English > speakers (I don't know about other accents), the "i" in "bite" is not > the same as Lojban "ai". If it were allowed in Lojban, I'd say it > sounds more like "yi". However, some words do have a Lojban "ai" > sound, for example, "pie". I'm sure there must be some rule to figure > this out (they are allophones in English), but I'm not sure what it > is. > > mu'o mi'e zif > > On 21 ene, 11:42, Luke Bergen wrote: > > Really? I pronounce lojban {e} as in "b[e]t" which is a completely > > different sound from "b[a]t" I think. Both of which are different from > > "b[i]t". > > > > The choice to leave out some vowels kind of annoyed me at first as well, > OP. > > But I grew to accept if after realizing that lack of some vowel sounds > is > > acceptable if it's in the name of having unique phonemes for each vowel. > > You can get SOME of your favorite vowel sounds back with diphthongs like > > {ai} = "b[i]te", {ei} = "w[a]y", {oi} = "t[oy]", {au} = "h[ow]", etc... > > > > But those actually make sense given the component vowels that make up the > > diphthong. If you say lojban {a} and quickly roll into {u} it comes off > > sounding like english "ow". > > > > But there are only 6 vowel letters and there are (off the top of my head) > 8 > > fundamental vowel sounds that can't be constructed from diphthongs of > other > > vowels. These are lojban a, e, i, o, u, and y plus the english b[a]t and > > b[i]t. > > > > If we wanted those sounds, we'd have to add new letterals or assign > un-used > > diphthongs to these two "missing" vowels. I'd be comfortable with the > first > > option because it would only expand the potential word space. But the > > second option seems very un-lojbanic and I'd fight it tooth-and-nail :) > > > > As for the two "th" sounds... well, there are a ton of consonant-like > sounds > > that didn't make it into lojban. We can't get them all in there. I seem > to > > remember hearing an argument against [th]e that went something like "many > > languages don't have that sound and it is extremely difficult to > pronounce > > for people who haven't grown up with it". > > > > On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 10:50 AM, Timo Paulssen < > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > timona...@perpetuum-immobile.de> wrote: > > > On 01/21/2011 07:41 AM, Greendogo wrote: > > > > I was wondering what criteria was chosen for the sounds used in > > > > Lojban. > > > > > Hello! > > > > > Even though I don't know about the criteria for the choices, I hope i > > > can help you with this mail. > > > > > > For instance, why was the German sound used for "x" used, but the > > > > sounds [th]ink, [th]e, b[a]t, and b[i]t were not? > > > > > [th] is a valid pronunciation of {'} and the a in bat is a lot like > > > lojbans {e}. > > > > > mu'o mi'e timos > > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > > "Lojban Beginners" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com > . > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com e@googlegroups.com> > > > . > > > For more options, visit this group at > > >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --0023547c9847126002049a72bea1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm an American, and I most certainly pronounce "bite" as {ba= it}, just as I pronounce "pie" as {pai}. I can't even pronoun= ce "yi", assuming you're using the Lojban pronunciation, &quo= t;uh-ee",

On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 10:25 AM, Zifre <kmicklas@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:
I just thought I'd point out that, at least for American English
speakers (I don't know about other accents), the "i" in "= ;bite" is not
the same as Lojban "ai". If it were allowed in Lojban, I'd sa= y it
sounds more like "yi". However, some words do have a Lojban "= ;ai"
sound, for example, "pie". I'm sure there must be some rule t= o figure
this out (they are allophones in English), but I'm not sure what it
is.

mu'o mi'e zif

On 21 ene, 11:42, Luke Bergen <<= a href=3D"mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com">lukeaber...@gmail.com> wrote= :
> Really? =A0I pronounce lojban {e} as in "b[e]t" which is a c= ompletely
> different sound from "b[a]t" I think. =A0Both of which are d= ifferent from
> "b[i]t".
>
> The choice to leave out some vowels kind of annoyed me at first as wel= l, OP.
> =A0But I grew to accept if after realizing that lack of some vowel sou= nds is
> acceptable if it's in the name of having unique phonemes for each = vowel.
> =A0You can get SOME of your favorite vowel sounds back with diphthongs= like
> {ai} =3D "b[i]te", {ei} =3D "w[a]y", {oi} =3D &quo= t;t[oy]", {au} =3D "h[ow]", etc...
>
> But those actually make sense given the component vowels that make up = the
> diphthong. =A0If you say lojban {a} and quickly roll into {u} it comes= off
> sounding like english "ow".
>
> But there are only 6 vowel letters and there are (off the top of my he= ad) 8
> fundamental vowel sounds that can't be constructed from diphthongs= of other
> vowels. =A0These are lojban a, e, i, o, u, and y plus the english b[a]= t and
> b[i]t.
>
> If we wanted those sounds, we'd have to add new letterals or assig= n un-used
> diphthongs to these two "missing" vowels. =A0I'd be comf= ortable with the first
> option because it would only expand the potential word space. =A0But t= he
> second option seems very un-lojbanic and I'd fight it tooth-and-na= il :)
>
> As for the two "th" sounds... well, there are a ton of conso= nant-like sounds
> that didn't make it into lojban. =A0We can't get them all in t= here. =A0I seem to
> remember hearing an argument against [th]e that went something like &q= uot;many
> languages don't have that sound and it is extremely difficult to p= ronounce
> for people who haven't grown up with it".
>
> On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 10:50 AM, Timo Paulssen <
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> timona...@perpetuum-immobile.de> wrote:
> > On 01/21/2011 07:41 AM, Greendogo wrote:
> > > I was wondering what criteria was chosen for the sounds used= in
> > > Lojban.
>
> > Hello!
>
> > Even though I don't know about the criteria for the choices, = I hope i
> > can help you with this mail.
>
> > > For instance, why was the German sound used for "x"= ; used, but the
> > > sounds [th]ink, [th]e, b[a]t, and b[i]t were not?
>
> > [th] is a valid pronunciation of {'} and the a in bat is a lo= t like
> > lojbans {e}.
>
> > mu'o mi'e timos
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Googl= e Groups
> > "Lojban Beginners" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<lojban-beginne= rs%2Bunsubscrib e@googlegroups.com>
> > .
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den= .

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.




--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be = denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I= am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.
--0023547c9847126002049a72bea1--