From lojban-beginners+bncCOjSjrXVGBDqwOzpBBoEtfUfRA@googlegroups.com Sat Jan 22 10:22:58 2011 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Pgi6v-0003zh-48; Sat, 22 Jan 2011 10:22:58 -0800 Received: by gxk19 with SMTP id 19sf2245151gxk.16 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2011 10:22:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=ZVjq1/NB66VHusZCwlZccZlWZ2QDt+bZZDewDsLu3zg=; b=tzQwfo6gzk4ZxNsGiBmDS5M91GPeWrOFtLse12UCqWaCTZz0B4+LyAFqeGdpGDWNrA vbkYJQ7QRs0u3UimvysHjuTk9zMNataq7xC0xIENRAQ1Qs0NT45WljtKoOadkFrG8Puj ZncgHcPSy396vGNuwrrS/zm71EctIx+kBfV30= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=d65zmSPDh1yxEEr078z7m+A14uWYQ5oD2KhuObRI/PM3Px3S43fNWIB30t7JUL5KK9 JfWIITR4kcjQGPbNXRQ6PUeghrhrpjxHBgluJdYAie68c+/mAg8uUkQDEcB4cqgmCdjO vkudHYPrhiukERi/gvluZSILJa2wtKErnU4Gk= Received: by 10.150.12.9 with SMTP id 9mr214458ybl.32.1295720554521; Sat, 22 Jan 2011 10:22:34 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.76.165 with SMTP id c37ls3135653ibk.3.p; Sat, 22 Jan 2011 10:22:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.208.71 with SMTP id gb7mr827975ibb.3.1295720553676; Sat, 22 Jan 2011 10:22:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.208.71 with SMTP id gb7mr827974ibb.3.1295720553628; Sat, 22 Jan 2011 10:22:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iy0-f178.google.com (mail-iy0-f178.google.com [209.85.210.178]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m30si2675346ibu.6.2011.01.22.10.22.32 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sat, 22 Jan 2011 10:22:32 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.178 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.178; Received: by iyi42 with SMTP id 42so3281447iyi.37 for ; Sat, 22 Jan 2011 10:22:32 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.36.198 with SMTP id u6mr2473611ibd.100.1295720552319; Sat, 22 Jan 2011 10:22:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.200.148 with HTTP; Sat, 22 Jan 2011 10:22:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.200.148 with HTTP; Sat, 22 Jan 2011 10:22:32 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <7a56acc4-c2ce-47fe-ba09-b1f6a61eb59d@c39g2000yqi.googlegroups.com> <4D39AB52.7000207@perpetuum-immobile.de> <63eeb85f-de22-4301-9edd-161e7fa817f1@o4g2000yqd.googlegroups.com> Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2011 13:22:32 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: Questions on the sounds chosen for Lojban From: Luke Bergen To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.178 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0021cc0223823fcbc9049a7373a2 --0021cc0223823fcbc9049a7373a2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Really? I find that I pronounce bite like lojban byit. Maybe a better example of yi in english is "site". When I say "site" out loud in english there is absolutely no hint of the lojban "a" sound. I think that in general english "s[i]te" and "b[uy]" are two different and distinct diphthongs On Jan 22, 2011 12:31 PM, "Jonathan Jones" wrote: > I'm an American, and I most certainly pronounce "bite" as {bait}, just as I > pronounce "pie" as {pai}. I can't even pronounce "yi", assuming you're using > the Lojban pronunciation, "uh-ee", > > On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 10:25 AM, Zifre wrote: > >> I just thought I'd point out that, at least for American English >> speakers (I don't know about other accents), the "i" in "bite" is not >> the same as Lojban "ai". If it were allowed in Lojban, I'd say it >> sounds more like "yi". However, some words do have a Lojban "ai" >> sound, for example, "pie". I'm sure there must be some rule to figure >> this out (they are allophones in English), but I'm not sure what it >> is. >> >> mu'o mi'e zif >> >> On 21 ene, 11:42, Luke Bergen wrote: >> > Really? I pronounce lojban {e} as in "b[e]t" which is a completely >> > different sound from "b[a]t" I think. Both of which are different from >> > "b[i]t". >> > >> > The choice to leave out some vowels kind of annoyed me at first as well, >> OP. >> > But I grew to accept if after realizing that lack of some vowel sounds >> is >> > acceptable if it's in the name of having unique phonemes for each vowel. >> > You can get SOME of your favorite vowel sounds back with diphthongs like >> > {ai} = "b[i]te", {ei} = "w[a]y", {oi} = "t[oy]", {au} = "h[ow]", etc... >> > >> > But those actually make sense given the component vowels that make up the >> > diphthong. If you say lojban {a} and quickly roll into {u} it comes off >> > sounding like english "ow". >> > >> > But there are only 6 vowel letters and there are (off the top of my head) >> 8 >> > fundamental vowel sounds that can't be constructed from diphthongs of >> other >> > vowels. These are lojban a, e, i, o, u, and y plus the english b[a]t and >> > b[i]t. >> > >> > If we wanted those sounds, we'd have to add new letterals or assign >> un-used >> > diphthongs to these two "missing" vowels. I'd be comfortable with the >> first >> > option because it would only expand the potential word space. But the >> > second option seems very un-lojbanic and I'd fight it tooth-and-nail :) >> > >> > As for the two "th" sounds... well, there are a ton of consonant-like >> sounds >> > that didn't make it into lojban. We can't get them all in there. I seem >> to >> > remember hearing an argument against [th]e that went something like "many >> > languages don't have that sound and it is extremely difficult to >> pronounce >> > for people who haven't grown up with it". >> > >> > On Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 10:50 AM, Timo Paulssen < >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > timona...@perpetuum-immobile.de> wrote: >> > > On 01/21/2011 07:41 AM, Greendogo wrote: >> > > > I was wondering what criteria was chosen for the sounds used in >> > > > Lojban. >> > >> > > Hello! >> > >> > > Even though I don't know about the criteria for the choices, I hope i >> > > can help you with this mail. >> > >> > > > For instance, why was the German sound used for "x" used, but the >> > > > sounds [th]ink, [th]e, b[a]t, and b[i]t were not? >> > >> > > [th] is a valid pronunciation of {'} and the a in bat is a lot like >> > > lojbans {e}. >> > >> > > mu'o mi'e timos >> > >> > > -- >> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups >> > > "Lojban Beginners" group. >> > > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com >> . >> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> > > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> e@googlegroups.com> >> > > . >> > > For more options, visit this group at >> > >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >> >> > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do > zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com . > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --0021cc0223823fcbc9049a7373a2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Really?=A0 I find that I pronounce bite like lojban byit.=A0 Maybe a bet= ter example of yi in english is "site".=A0 When I say "site&= quot; out loud in english there is absolutely no hint of the lojban "a= " sound.

I think that in general english "s[i]te" and "b[uy]"= are two different and distinct diphthongs

On Jan 22, 2011 12:31 PM, "Jonathan Jones&q= uot; <eyeonus@gmail.com> wro= te:
> I'm an American, and I most certainly = pronounce "bite" as {bait}, just as I
> pronounce "pie" as {pai}. I can't even pronounce "y= i", assuming you're using
> the Lojban pronunciation, "= uh-ee",
>
> On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 10:25 AM, Zifre <<= a href=3D"mailto:kmicklas@gmail.com">kmicklas@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I just thought I'd point out that, at least for Ameri= can English
>> speakers (I don't know about other accents), th= e "i" in "bite" is not
>> the same as Lojban &= quot;ai". If it were allowed in Lojban, I'd say it
>> sounds more like "yi". However, some words do have a Loj= ban "ai"
>> sound, for example, "pie". I'm= sure there must be some rule to figure
>> this out (they are allo= phones in English), but I'm not sure what it
>> is.
>>
>> mu'o mi'e zif
>>
&= gt;> On 21 ene, 11:42, Luke Bergen <lukeaber...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Really? I pr= onounce lojban {e} as in "b[e]t" which is a completely
>> > different sound from "b[a]t" I think. Both of whic= h are different from
>> > "b[i]t".
>> >>> > The choice to leave out some vowels kind of annoyed me at f= irst as well,
>> OP.
>> > But I grew to accept if after realizing that= lack of some vowel sounds
>> is
>> > acceptable if it= 's in the name of having unique phonemes for each vowel.
>> &g= t; You can get SOME of your favorite vowel sounds back with diphthongs lik= e
>> > {ai} =3D "b[i]te", {ei} =3D "w[a]y", {oi}= =3D "t[oy]", {au} =3D "h[ow]", etc...
>> >=
>> > But those actually make sense given the component vowels = that make up the
>> > diphthong. If you say lojban {a} and quickly roll into {u} i= t comes off
>> > sounding like english "ow".
>&= gt; >
>> > But there are only 6 vowel letters and there are = (off the top of my head)
>> 8
>> > fundamental vowel sounds that can't be cons= tructed from diphthongs of
>> other
>> > vowels. Thes= e are lojban a, e, i, o, u, and y plus the english b[a]t and
>> &g= t; b[i]t.
>> >
>> > If we wanted those sounds, we'd have to = add new letterals or assign
>> un-used
>> > diphthongs= to these two "missing" vowels. I'd be comfortable with the<= br> >> first
>> > option because it would only expand the pot= ential word space. But the
>> > second option seems very un-lo= jbanic and I'd fight it tooth-and-nail :)
>> >
>> = > As for the two "th" sounds... well, there are a ton of conso= nant-like
>> sounds
>> > that didn't make it into lojban. We c= an't get them all in there. I seem
>> to
>> > rem= ember hearing an argument against [th]e that went something like "many=
>> > languages don't have that sound and it is extremely diffi= cult to
>> pronounce
>> > for people who haven't g= rown up with it".
>> >
>> > On Fri, Jan 21, 20= 11 at 10:50 AM, Timo Paulssen <
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>= ; >
>> >
>> >
>> > timona...@perpetuum-immobile.de> w= rote:
>> > > On 01/21/2011 07:41 AM, Greendogo wrote:
>> >= ; > > I was wondering what criteria was chosen for the sounds used in=
>> > > > Lojban.
>> >
>> > > = Hello!
>> >
>> > > Even though I don't know about the = criteria for the choices, I hope i
>> > > can help you with = this mail.
>> >
>> > > > For instance, why wa= s the German sound used for "x" used, but the
>> > > > sounds [th]ink, [th]e, b[a]t, and b[i]t were not?>> >
>> > > [th] is a valid pronunciation of {= 9;} and the a in bat is a lot like
>> > > lojbans {e}.
>> >
>> > > mu'o mi'e timos
>> >= ;
>> > > --
>> > > You received this message = because you are subscribed to the Google
>> Groups
>> >= ; > "Lojban Beginners" group.
>> > > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
= >> .
>> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email= to
>> > > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<lojban-beginners%= 2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com><lojban-beginners%2Bunsubscrib
>> e@googlegroups.com>>> > > .
>> > > For more options, visit this g= roup at
>> > >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3D= en.
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you a= re subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Lojban Beginners"= group.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> lojban-beginner= s+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<lojban-beginners%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups= .com>
>> .
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://gr= oups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.
>>
>>=
>
>
> --
> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>
&= gt; .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk= . mi patfu do
> zo'o
> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am yo= ur father. :D )
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscri= bed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
> To pos= t to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@goo= glegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.goo= gle.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.
>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.
--0021cc0223823fcbc9049a7373a2--