From lojban-beginners+bncCNf8pM-bDBC27PDpBBoE7pxfPA@googlegroups.com Sun Jan 23 06:08:06 2011 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Ph0br-0004zd-DI; Sun, 23 Jan 2011 06:08:06 -0800 Received: by mail-wy0-f189.google.com with SMTP id 35sf3744090wyb.16 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2011 06:08:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=475+V1Aoo4uJnEUp67Mdopb7s7j03aYnr5w3DuWniHI=; b=eZ/h2wnqE5htw60zHh3fPTO2sz6jYqBwpwu1t/rus8XMNk1RidzycaZOPE9ZUeIuyp ESxWNzFQB8jzlBbS4mv3jiCtjOgDrch/YXxDAbFGOTYANKozNgmjYI4d418wR1Me8fDp hmAvG/5VKMkHhwJJUBNcknOY5MZtHAekWpknU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=bpA/uAQEVWIeDtCip+kkzzBXDfBhOorGJJ3g8CJ2uYfpqIxzl5BFDf6p7Lb56JHa2d rG6ghom6H3Ra7iLcdrm1aXRrWh4SHpLO7nOy7KYHO+qlU0v90XjdRc8l0SikAAk8MVBq yBh8wJm8DhOwQapkhcKti2d//76woBnvQTyRI= Received: by 10.216.172.73 with SMTP id s51mr481221wel.27.1295791670888; Sun, 23 Jan 2011 06:07:50 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.237.207 with SMTP id y57ls325575weq.0.p; Sun, 23 Jan 2011 06:07:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.28.8 with SMTP id f8mr172629wea.14.1295791669937; Sun, 23 Jan 2011 06:07:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.151.70 with SMTP id b6mr139161wbw.27.1295791595450; Sun, 23 Jan 2011 06:06:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.151.70 with SMTP id b6mr139160wbw.27.1295791595427; Sun, 23 Jan 2011 06:06:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wy0-f175.google.com (mail-wy0-f175.google.com [74.125.82.175]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m79si1224585wej.7.2011.01.23.06.06.34 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sun, 23 Jan 2011 06:06:34 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.175 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.175; Received: by mail-wy0-f175.google.com with SMTP id 40so3318723wyb.20 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2011 06:06:34 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.18.195 with SMTP id l45mr1281742wel.79.1295791594215; Sun, 23 Jan 2011 06:06:34 -0800 (PST) Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.7.133 with HTTP; Sun, 23 Jan 2011 06:06:34 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <4D3B307D.60603@perpetuum-immobile.de> Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 14:06:34 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] oh my god, please make it stop, it hurts so much! (was: Re: Questions on the sounds chosen for Lojban) From: tijlan To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: paskios@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.175 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=paskios@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree with Timo that we want to avoid English-based representations of foreign sounds. Is using English respelling keys not confusing even among natives? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Pronunciation_respelling_key "e" is [=C9=9B] but "ew" is somehow [ju:], which is the general native English sound of the alphabet "u", which itself in this scheme represents [=CA=8C]. So, "pu" would be [p=CA=8C] rather than [pju:] (better= yet [pu]), and "pew" would be [pju:] rather than something like [p=C9=9Bw]. "ee" is for both [i] and [i:]. "oo" is for both [=CA=8A] and [u:]. "oor" is [=CA=8A=C9=99r] (American "cure") but "ohr" is [=C9=94=C9=99r] (American "f= orce"), and both "oh" and "oe" are for [o=CA=8A] (American "goat"). This appears to me less desirable than X-SAMPA in a cross-cultural context (not only English x non-English but also English x English such as between the US, the UK, Australia, etc., which may have different native perspectives on respelling keys). Here's a typical IPA-less, English-speaker-oriented beginner's guide to languages: http://wordsandphrases.wordpress.com/french-words-phrases/ The French "salut" is taught as "sah-lew". An uninformed reader might learn it as two long vowels with an approximant [s=C9=91:'lju:], when the correct pronunciation has no long vowel and approximant, [sa.ly] (notice also that English is stress-timed while French is syllable-timed; there is no distinctive stress in French words). Fortunately, French has allophonic long vowels but don't phonemically distinguish them from the short vowels, so [u:] instead of [u] isn't much of a problem. However, it would be a trouble in languages that do make such a distinction, such as German, Finnish, Japanese, Arabic, and many others. One of the contradictions in English as the most used auxiliary language on Earth is that its phonology and orthography is relatively so peculiar that it can't be used as a consistent and reliable means for foreign language representations as much as may be desired. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.