From lojban-beginners+bncCJGY6cDlFhCHnPHpBBoEloMcVQ@googlegroups.com Sun Jan 23 07:49:56 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Ph2CG-0002qN-LV; Sun, 23 Jan 2011 07:49:55 -0800 Received: by fxm10 with SMTP id 10sf1807964fxm.16 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2011 07:49:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=EPxbGX7T39ybRkJYUkJc4b2Au5NbP1IlC1IqBYJjePw=; b=4MyVV3DPQXTrBlba8lBbER0ijnzk3OIqUEPvTIVQZ/bHnqE6hfRH9elP9x2Kgm/oZE ykOIueazQCVGz0vqVKkL9wUZYctBiEXN9BBVg40jpMyKvjcOKX/h3xRJuMVDv8pEp+vh OOWHtv7zPxgeJFqHYSW/yXAPnjFJw4l5L9D8k= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=TtLkWtcJh4k6xIxiEI+FtOjVN8vJ1G6ro7+/3bZVTGY46uxAFU+IuopgRaSLFsB6Sp LIlidsX73UlSS4Ntq0fQgWl3c0wT7/HecgXUQNVQQZEOnQx91rupo/AQO24NzVnjtUgS BXT49+J4TrMdPzpDU1waOdW5J5BPW1sjipGzM= Received: by 10.223.72.198 with SMTP id n6mr242262faj.31.1295797767200; Sun, 23 Jan 2011 07:49:27 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.134.7 with SMTP id h7ls1209675bkt.2.p; Sun, 23 Jan 2011 07:49:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.204.189.74 with SMTP id dd10mr196890bkb.23.1295797765110; Sun, 23 Jan 2011 07:49:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.204.189.74 with SMTP id dd10mr196888bkb.23.1295797765042; Sun, 23 Jan 2011 07:49:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-fx0-f47.google.com (mail-fx0-f47.google.com [209.85.161.47]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f12si2094572bkf.3.2011.01.23.07.49.23 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sun, 23 Jan 2011 07:49:24 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of get.oren@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.47 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.47; Received: by fxm17 with SMTP id 17so3291877fxm.34 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2011 07:49:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.223.83.208 with SMTP id g16mr3134749fal.52.1295797762700; Sun, 23 Jan 2011 07:49:22 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.66.220 with HTTP; Sun, 23 Jan 2011 07:49:02 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <201101231026.58946.phma@phma.optus.nu> References: <201101231026.58946.phma@phma.optus.nu> From: Oren Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 10:49:02 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] oh my god, please make it stop, it hurts so much! (was: Re: Questions on the sounds chosen for Lojban) To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: get.oren@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of get.oren@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.47 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=get.oren@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf3054a2c158b690049a856d53 --20cf3054a2c158b690049a856d53 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001996.html "*vowel quality change in /aj/ before voiceless vs. voiced.* In some North American dialects, certain vowels are different in quality when voiceless vs. voiced consonants follow. The vowel most commonly affected is "long i" -- the vowel in *five *vs. *fife*, *tide* vs.* tight*, *bide* vs.* bite*, etc. In the affected dialects, this vowel is raised and fronted in the pre-voiceless cases. For these speakers, the diphthong in *fife* starts out near the vowel of *bud*, and ends near the vowel of *bade*; while the diphthong in *five* starts near the vowel of *hod*, and ends nears the vowe= l of *hed*. In IPA , this is something like the difference between [f=CA=8Cef] and [f=C9=91=C9=9Bv]. (If you want to see what this means in terms of acoustic measurements,here was a discussion of this on phonoloblog last summer (here and here ), in which B= ob Kennedy and I exchanged plots of our formant trajectories (time functions o= f resonance frequencies) in *fife* vs. *five*.) This vowel quality distinction is generally not affected by flapping/voicin= g of /t/. As a result, in my own speech, the same quality difference that appears in *write* vs. *ride* also appears in *writer* vs. *rider*. As a result, while*latter* and *ladder* are homophones for me, *writer* and * rider* are definitely not. The original /t/ and /d/ are both neutralized to a voiced tap [=C9=BE], but the initital-syllable diphthongs are very differ= ent. (This change in "long i" before voiceless consonants is sometimes called "Canadian raising", but a similar change is found in many U.S. dialects as well. Back in 1942, Martin Joos claimed that Ontario speakers divided into two groups, one of which maintained the vowel quality distinction in spite of flapping and voicing, while the other group didn't; however, I've never been able to find any speakers of his second type, who would raise the diphthong in *write* but not in *writer*.)" On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 10:26, Pierre Abbat wrote: > On Sunday 23 January 2011 09:06:34 tijlan wrote: > > I agree with Timo that we want to avoid English-based representations > > of foreign sounds. Is using English respelling keys not confusing even > > among natives? > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Pronunciation_respelling_key > > It is. "or" or "awr" is the diphthong in "north" or "war", in that key, b= ut > to > me they are different. > > > Here's a typical IPA-less, English-speaker-oriented beginner's guide > > to languages: > > > > http://wordsandphrases.wordpress.com/french-words-phrases/ > > > > The French "salut" is taught as "sah-lew". An uninformed reader might > > learn it as two long vowels with an approximant [s=C9=91:'lju:], when t= he > > correct pronunciation has no long vowel and approximant, [sa.ly] > > (notice also that English is stress-timed while French is > > syllable-timed; there is no distinctive stress in French words). > > Fortunately, French has allophonic long vowels but don't phonemically > > distinguish them from the short vowels, so [u:] instead of [u] isn't > > much of a problem. However, it would be a trouble in languages that do > > make such a distinction, such as German, Finnish, Japanese, Arabic, > > and many others. > > How would they respell "cire", "sur", "s=C5=93ur", "sieur", and "sueur" s= o that > the > Francophone could tell what the Anglophone was saying? > > Pierre > -- > .i toljundi do .ibabo mi'afra tu'a do > .ibabo damba do .ibabo do jinga > .icu'u la ma'atman. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > --=20 Oren Robinson (315) 569-2888 102 Morrison Ave Somerville, MA 02144 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. --20cf3054a2c158b690049a856d53 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
From=C2=A0http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archiv= es/001996.html

"= vowel quality change in /aj/ before voiceless vs. voiced.<= /span>=C2=A0I= n some North American dialects, certain vowels are different in quality whe= n voiceless vs. voiced consonants follow. The vowel most commonly affected = is "long i" -- the vowel in=C2=A0five=C2=A0vs.=C2=A0fife<= span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: georgia, verdana, ari= al, sans-serif; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); line-height: 18px; ">,=C2=A0= tide= =C2=A0= vs.=C2=A0tight,=C2=A0bide=C2=A0vs.=C2=A0bite, etc. In the affected dialects, this = vowel is raised and fronted in the pre-voiceless cases. For these speakers,= the diphthong in=C2=A0fife=C2=A0starts out near the vowel of=C2=A0bud, and ends = near the vowel of=C2=A0bade; while the diphthong in=C2=A0five=C2=A0starts near th= e vowel of=C2=A0hod, and ends nears the vowel of=C2=A0hed. In=C2=A0IPA, this is something like the= difference between=C2=A0[f=CA=8Cef]=C2=A0and=C2=A0[f=C9=91=C9=9Bv].

(If you want to see what this means in terms of acoustic measurements,here = was a discussion of this on phonoloblog last summer (here=C2=A0and=C2=A0here<= /a>), in which Bob Kennedy and I exchanged plots of our formant trajectorie= s (time functions of resonance frequencies) in=C2=A0fife=C2=A0vs.= =C2=A0five.)

This vowel quality distinction is generally= not affected by flapping/voicing of /t/. As a result, in my own speech, th= e same quality difference that appears in=C2=A0write=C2=A0vs.=C2= =A0ride=C2=A0also appears in=C2=A0writer=C2=A0vs.=C2=A0rider. As a result, whilelatter=C2=A0and=C2=A0ladder=C2=A0are homophones for me,=C2=A0writer=C2=A0and=C2=A0rider= =C2=A0are definitely not. The original /t/ and /d/ are both neutralize= d to a voiced tap=C2=A0[=C9=BE], but the initital-syllable diphthongs ar= e very different.

(This change = in "long i" before voiceless consonants is sometimes called=C2=A0= "Canadian raising= ", but a similar change is found in many U.S. dialects as well. Back in = 1942, Martin Joos=C2=A0claimed=C2=A0that Ontari= o speakers divided into two groups, one of which maintained the vowel quali= ty distinction in spite of flapping and voicing, while the other group didn= 't; however, I've never been able to find any speakers of his secon= d type, who would raise the diphthong in=C2=A0write=C2=A0but not in=C2=A0writer<= /em>.)= "=


On Sun, Jan 2= 3, 2011 at 10:26, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
On Sunday 23 January 2011= 09:06:34 tijlan wrote:
> I agree with Timo that we want to avoid English-based representations<= br> > of foreign sounds. Is using English respelling keys not confusing even=
> among natives?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Pronunci= ation_respelling_key

It is. "or" or "awr" is the diphthong in "no= rth" or "war", in that key, but to
me they are different.

> Here's a typical IPA-less, English-speaker-oriented beginner's= guide
> to languages:
>
> http://wordsandphrases.wordpress.com/french-words-phrase= s/
>
> The French "salut" is taught as "sah-lew". An unin= formed reader might
> learn it as two long vowels with an approximant [s=C9=91:'lju:], w= hen the
> correct pronunciation has no long vowel and approximant, [sa.ly]
> (notice also that English is stress-timed while French is
> syllable-timed; there is no distinctive stress in French words).
> Fortunately, French has allophonic long vowels but don't phonemica= lly
> distinguish them from the short vowels, so [u:] instead of [u] isn'= ;t
> much of a problem. However, it would be a trouble in languages that do=
> make such a distinction, such as German, Finnish, Japanese, Arabic, > and many others.

How would they respell "cire", "sur", "s=C5= =93ur", "sieur", and "sueur"=C2=A0so that the
Francophone could tell what the Anglophone was saying?

Pierre
--
.i toljundi do .ibabo mi'afra tu'a do
.ibabo damba do .ibabo do jinga
.icu'u la ma'atman.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.




--
Oren Robinson
(315) 569-2888
102 Morrison Ave
Somerville, MA 02144

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.
--20cf3054a2c158b690049a856d53--