From lojban-beginners+bncCOjSjrXVGBC3v_HpBBoEp6Op4A@googlegroups.com Sun Jan 23 09:05:25 2011 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Ph3NJ-0001e2-Gc; Sun, 23 Jan 2011 09:05:24 -0800 Received: by gxk19 with SMTP id 19sf2845540gxk.16 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2011 09:05:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=QSeF5IU7pOrJg/OVyf/562X4hP+cCHybhkMCaTkonHg=; b=OBo9WTxOwItCJZmMt3sStvLSzxPk9T8WkOSfyStifTJE/Zqj+TRpmzRRVUwJ5W0NQI Zd+sPRxcSRfuhV+h9F3HIPNXk3bOPitdDlOCHRe3l5I74Dg6wKHymVWPJzSHyB9QjoJj NfM/OPZX8vWEpBsNUuxog0nQBqTV2AR7qtXUA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=VFJKLC28Q73bLs0EEyI2rBX3Vp/EyNqbappfA6M0igjsaOMqlThMA5Ba4NXZucGkj2 q8zxVxA3xvbxQuYFWE+ET9nkG2Ucu1P7nwu1ehRkNKBrrrlUWYPPX5BTF6I0DQ0TsJyB BpbRSUbeBWdr3D+LaJ8wvooiggUw9C/MaEAx4= Received: by 10.100.140.18 with SMTP id n18mr119017and.19.1295802295091; Sun, 23 Jan 2011 09:04:55 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.76.165 with SMTP id c37ls3747525ibk.3.p; Sun, 23 Jan 2011 09:04:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.42.176.2 with SMTP id bc2mr313530icb.80.1295802294356; Sun, 23 Jan 2011 09:04:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.42.176.2 with SMTP id bc2mr313529icb.80.1295802294335; Sun, 23 Jan 2011 09:04:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iw0-f181.google.com (mail-iw0-f181.google.com [209.85.214.181]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c4si1321382ict.0.2011.01.23.09.04.53 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sun, 23 Jan 2011 09:04:53 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.181 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.181; Received: by mail-iw0-f181.google.com with SMTP id 3so3799044iwn.26 for ; Sun, 23 Jan 2011 09:04:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.36.198 with SMTP id u6mr3545399ibd.100.1295802293027; Sun, 23 Jan 2011 09:04:53 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.200.148 with HTTP; Sun, 23 Jan 2011 09:04:52 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <201101231026.58946.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 12:04:52 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] oh my god, please make it stop, it hurts so much! (was: Re: Questions on the sounds chosen for Lojban) From: Luke Bergen To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.181 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0021cc0223826004c9049a867bdd --0021cc0223826004c9049a867bdd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I see what you mean now timos about how it's bad idea to talk about pronunciations in terms of english words. Just because I pronounce pie and pipe like {pai} and {pyip} does not mean that all americans do the same. In fact, according to the abstract in the paper that Oren found, I may very well be in the minority. Well, I'm off to learn IPA On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 10:49 AM, Oren wrote: > From http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001996.html > > "*vowel quality change in /aj/ before voiceless vs. voiced.* In some Nort= h > American dialects, certain vowels are different in quality when voiceless > vs. voiced consonants follow. The vowel most commonly affected is "long i= " > -- the vowel in *five *vs. *fife*, *tide* vs.* tight*, *bide* vs.* bite*, > etc. In the affected dialects, this vowel is raised and fronted in the > pre-voiceless cases. For these speakers, the diphthong in *fife* starts > out near the vowel of *bud*, and ends near the vowel of *bade*; while the > diphthong in *five* starts near the vowel of *hod*, and ends nears the > vowel of *hed*. In IPA , this > is something like the difference between [f=CA=8Cef] and [f=C9=91=C9=9Bv]= . > > (If you want to see what this means in terms of acoustic measurements,her= e > was a discussion of this on phonoloblog last summer (here > and here ), in which > Bob Kennedy and I exchanged plots of our formant trajectories (time > functions of resonance frequencies) in *fife* vs. *five*.) > > This vowel quality distinction is generally not affected by > flapping/voicing of /t/. As a result, in my own speech, the same quality > difference that appears in *write* vs. *ride* also appears in *writer* > vs. *rider*. As a result, while*latter* and *ladder* are homophones for > me, *writer* and *rider* are definitely not. The original /t/ and /d/ are > both neutralized to a voiced tap [=C9=BE], but the initital-syllable diph= thongs > are very different. > (This change in "long i" before voiceless consonants is sometimes called = "Canadian > raising", > but a similar change is found in many U.S. dialects as well. Back in 1942= , > Martin Joos claimed that > Ontario speakers divided into two groups, one of which maintained the vow= el > quality distinction in spite of flapping and voicing, while the other gro= up > didn't; however, I've never been able to find any speakers of his second > type, who would raise the diphthong in *write* but not in *writer*.)" > > > On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 10:26, Pierre Abbat wrote: > >> On Sunday 23 January 2011 09:06:34 tijlan wrote: >> > I agree with Timo that we want to avoid English-based representations >> > of foreign sounds. Is using English respelling keys not confusing even >> > among natives? >> > >> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Pronunciation_respelling_key >> >> It is. "or" or "awr" is the diphthong in "north" or "war", in that key, >> but to >> me they are different. >> >> > Here's a typical IPA-less, English-speaker-oriented beginner's guide >> > to languages: >> > >> > http://wordsandphrases.wordpress.com/french-words-phrases/ >> > >> > The French "salut" is taught as "sah-lew". An uninformed reader might >> > learn it as two long vowels with an approximant [s=C9=91:'lju:], when = the >> > correct pronunciation has no long vowel and approximant, [sa.ly] >> > (notice also that English is stress-timed while French is >> > syllable-timed; there is no distinctive stress in French words). >> > Fortunately, French has allophonic long vowels but don't phonemically >> > distinguish them from the short vowels, so [u:] instead of [u] isn't >> > much of a problem. However, it would be a trouble in languages that do >> > make such a distinction, such as German, Finnish, Japanese, Arabic, >> > and many others. >> >> How would they respell "cire", "sur", "s=C5=93ur", "sieur", and "sueur" = so that >> the >> Francophone could tell what the Anglophone was saying? >> >> Pierre >> -- >> .i toljundi do .ibabo mi'afra tu'a do >> .ibabo damba do .ibabo do jinga >> .icu'u la ma'atman. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. >> >> > > > -- > Oren Robinson > (315) 569-2888 > 102 Morrison Ave > Somerville, MA 02144 > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. --0021cc0223826004c9049a867bdd Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I see what you mean now timos about how it's bad idea to talk about=C2= =A0pronunciations=C2=A0in terms of english words. =C2=A0Just because I pron= ounce pie and pipe like {pai} and {pyip} does not mean that all americans d= o the same. =C2=A0In fact, according to the abstract in the paper that Oren= found, I may very well be in the minority.

Well, I'm off to learn IPA

On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 10:49 AM, Oren <get.oren@gmail.com> wrote:
=
From=C2=A0http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~my= l/languagelog/archives/001996.html

"vowel quality change in /aj/ before voiceless vs. voiced.<= /strong>=C2=A0In some North American dia= lects, certain vowels are different in quality when voiceless vs. voiced co= nsonants follow. The vowel most commonly affected is "long i" -- = the vowel in=C2=A0five=C2=A0vs.=C2=A0fife,=C2=A0tide=C2=A0vs.<= /span>=C2=A0tight,=C2=A0bide=C2=A0vs.=C2=A0bite, etc. In the affected = dialects, this vowel is raised and fronted in the pre-voiceless cases. For = these speakers, the diphthong in=C2=A0fife=C2=A0starts out near the vow= el of=C2=A0bud, and ends near the vowel of=C2=A0bade; while the dip= hthong in=C2=A0five=C2=A0starts near the vowel of=C2=A0hod, and end= s nears the vowel of=C2=A0hed. In=C2= =A0IPA, this is something like the d= ifference between=C2=A0[f=CA=8Cef]=C2=A0and=C2=A0[f=C9=91=C9=9Bv].

(If you want to see what this means in terms of acoustic measurements,here = was a discussion of this on phonoloblog last summer (here=C2=A0= and=C2=A0here), in which Bob Kennedy and I exchanged plots of o= ur formant trajectories (time functions of resonance frequencies) in=C2=A0<= em>fife=C2=A0vs.=C2=A0five.)

This vowel quality distinction is generally not af= fected by flapping/voicing of /t/. As a result, in my own speech, the same = quality difference that appears in=C2=A0write=C2=A0vs.=C2=A0ri= de=C2=A0also appears in=C2=A0writer=C2=A0vs.=C2=A0rider. As a result, whilelatter=C2=A0and=C2=A0ladder=C2=A0a= re homophones for me,=C2=A0writer=C2=A0and=C2=A0rider=C2= =A0are definitely not. The original /t/ and /d/ are both neutralized to a v= oiced tap=C2=A0[=C9=BE], but the initital-syllable diphthongs are very d= ifferent.

(This change in "long i" before voice= less consonants is sometimes called=C2=A0&quo= t;Canadian raising", but a simi= lar change is found in many U.S. dialects as well. Back in 1942, Martin Joo= s=C2=A0claimed=C2=A0that Ont= ario speakers divided into two groups, one of which maintained the vowel qu= ality distinction in spite of flapping and voicing, while the other group d= idn't; however, I've never been able to find any speakers of his se= cond type, who would raise the diphthong in=C2=A0write=C2=A0but not in= =C2=A0writer.)"


On Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 10:26, Pier= re Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
On Sunday 23 January 2011 09:06:34 tijl= an wrote:
> I agree with Timo that we want to avoid English-based representations<= br> > of foreign sounds. Is using English respelling keys not confusing even=
> among natives?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Pronunci= ation_respelling_key

It is. "or" or "awr" is the diphthong in "no= rth" or "war", in that key, but to
me they are different.

> Here's a typical IPA-less, English-speaker-oriented beginner's= guide
> to languages:
>
> http://wordsandphrases.wordpress.com/french-words-phrase= s/
>
> The French "salut" is taught as "sah-lew". An unin= formed reader might
> learn it as two long vowels with an approximant [s=C9=91:'lju:], w= hen the
> correct pronunciation has no long vowel and approximant, [sa.ly]
> (notice also that English is stress-timed while French is
> syllable-timed; there is no distinctive stress in French words).
> Fortunately, French has allophonic long vowels but don't phonemica= lly
> distinguish them from the short vowels, so [u:] instead of [u] isn'= ;t
> much of a problem. However, it would be a trouble in languages that do=
> make such a distinction, such as German, Finnish, Japanese, Arabic, > and many others.

How would they respell "cire", "sur", "s=C5= =93ur", "sieur", and "sueur"=C2=A0so that the
Francophone could tell what the Anglophone was saying?

Pierre
--
.i toljundi do .ibabo mi'afra tu'a do
.ibabo damba do .ibabo do jinga
.icu'u la ma'atman.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.




--
Oren Robinson
(315) 569-2888<= /div>
102 Morrison Ave
Somerville, MA 02144

--
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To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+un= subscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com.
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