From lojban-beginners+bncCOjSjrXVGBDqo_fpBBoEu5XDFw@googlegroups.com Mon Jan 24 11:24:49 2011 Received: from mail-yi0-f61.google.com ([209.85.218.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PhS1s-0006Nl-B3; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 11:24:49 -0800 Received: by yia27 with SMTP id 27sf3734877yia.16 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 11:24:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=WVMZomI7OSngOr2g3yuI2YPvrYaZuj4EPIhFM39jLhk=; b=OwwJsQ657OLvxoqENg2FSl4eN2mu6Ws+nZrDai9nAplTscPyv5aNDtl2/3/U1J2Qrg 229jTCMpyEnX6JVhJUHjc1EOpsA0ZUAOOcKZmEz2ih+o4rLUxd6r/ZOxG9kluZwXOJ2+ WVUf5Zg838gT83tBtRoREdNOVW6EkEl+1qies= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=4sXNLTQCRAyGlquf0JEPan1d3Tqk0vKuBJY2RnSMq+neXaZkXOzwXgoIj68f535LgB I3eZ2xaSC2RSx7peYQtiwlOUekBcqPxouejMTy8I0u6cNIgsl60HUbp0Fwa1cI8pQ1BJ Fk7rV6Pd4G5aT1WSXTZlWRfHBQyJqarb6LxOs= Received: by 10.90.30.19 with SMTP id d19mr339781agd.40.1295897066765; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 11:24:26 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.76.165 with SMTP id c37ls159935ibk.3.p; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 11:24:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.30.202 with SMTP id v10mr1658456ibc.4.1295897065848; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 11:24:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.30.202 with SMTP id v10mr1658455ibc.4.1295897065784; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 11:24:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iw0-f173.google.com (mail-iw0-f173.google.com [209.85.214.173]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id cu19si3254182ibb.5.2011.01.24.11.24.24 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 24 Jan 2011 11:24:24 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.173 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.173; Received: by mail-iw0-f173.google.com with SMTP id 40so4883180iwn.32 for ; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 11:24:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.15.8 with SMTP id i8mr5272893iba.125.1295897063961; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 11:24:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.200.148 with HTTP; Mon, 24 Jan 2011 11:24:23 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 14:24:23 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] oh my god, please make it stop, it hurts so much! (was: Re: Questions on the sounds chosen for Lojban) From: Luke Bergen To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.173 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=002215047c9b29b563049a9c8cf9 --002215047c9b29b563049a9c8cf9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable haha, all this lobdau for nothing. I don't hear any difference in how you say them. But I definitely do hear a difference when I replied to your cynch with a recording of "writer rider". Can you hear the difference? Which one sounds funny? Now I'm more curious as to where I picked this up. I was raised in eastern Pa (which is pretty close to NJ, so probably didn't get it there). I then went to college for 4 years in western ny (Buffalo region) (but my wife whose hometown was in western ny doesn't say them differently). I then moved out to the boston area and have been here for about 3 years. I'll have to ask some of my family who haven't moved around. Where in the hell did I pick this up? On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > I believe I possibly do. Listen to my cinchcast for them > http://www.cinchcast.com/gejyspa/160251 . I was born and bred in > central New Jersey. > > --gejyspa > > On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 1:07 PM, Luke Bergen > wrote: > > Odd, I grew up (and presumably acquired by accent) from > > eastern Pennsylvania. Not all THAT close to Canada. I only do the "ai= " > > part of the raising so my "about the house" is not subject to this > raising > > effect. > > Now I'm kind of curious about what parts of the country see this affect= . > > If anybody is willing to help tickle my curiosity, please reply with yo= ur > > general location and if you say "rider" and "writer" identically. > > > > On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 12:35 PM, Oren wrote: > >> > >> Aha. Wikipedia speaks, I am in fact just a very sheltered freak: > >> > >> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_English_regional_phonology#Ca= nadian_raising > >> "the General American pronunciations of rider and writer are identical > >> ([=C9=B9a=C9=AA=C9=BE=C9=9A]), those American English speakers whose d= ialects include either > the > >> full or restricted Canadian raising will pronounce them > >> as [=C9=B9a=C9=AA=C9=BE=C9=9A] and [=C9=B9=C9=99=C9=AA=C9=BE=C9=9A], r= espectively. Canadian raising is quite strong > in > >> most of Ontario and the Maritimes as well as in the Prairies. It is > receding > >> in British Columbia, and many of these speakers do not raise /a=C9=AA/= before > >> voiceless consonants." > >> > >> Apparently Syracuse, New York qualifies as sufficiently Canadian. > >> On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 12:11, MorphemeAddict > wrote: > >>> > >>> My Midwest USA accent has no difference TTBOMK between the vowels of > >>> "bold" and "so". Nor are they different in "pie" and "pipe", as a lat= er > post > >>> asserts. > >>> > >>> stevo > >>> > >>> On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 1:53 PM, Luke Bergen > >>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Why exactly is this bad, timos? The cll does it because how else ca= n > we > >>>> explain to nintadni that "o" says english "bold" not "so"? > >>>> > >>>> I find that now that I have a pretty good grasp of lojban > >>>> pronounciation, I have a new tool to help me better communicate > differences > >>>> of accent. > >>>> > >>>> Ideally I should just get off my lazy arse and learn IPA though :( > >>>> > >>>> i.e. lojban vowels don't help me to describe the difference in > >>>> pronounciation of "b[o]ston". > >>>> > >>>> But the difference between english "pie" and "pipe" is most certainl= y > >>>> distinguishable using lojban vowels (the difference being "pai" vs a= nd > >>>> "pyip"). Just try saying "pie" in english followed quickly by the "= p" > sound > >>>> and you will hear that it sounds funny and distinctly not like "pipe= " > >>>> > >>>> On Jan 22, 2011 1:29 PM, "Timo Paulssen" > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. > >>>> To post to this group, send email to > lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > >>>> For more options, visit this group at > >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > >>> > >>> -- > >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >>> "Lojban Beginners" group. > >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.co= m > . > >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > >>> For more options, visit this group at > >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Oren Robinson > >> (315) 569-2888 > >> 102 Morrison Ave > >> Somerville, MA 02144 > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >> "Lojban Beginners" group. > >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com= . > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > >> For more options, visit this group at > >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps > > "Lojban Beginners" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. --002215047c9b29b563049a9c8cf9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable haha, all this lobdau for nothing. =C2=A0I don't hear any difference in= how you say them. =C2=A0But I definitely do hear a difference when I repli= ed to your cynch with a recording of "writer rider". =C2=A0Can yo= u hear the difference? =C2=A0Which one sounds funny?

Now I'm more curious as to where I picked this up. =C2= =A0I was raised in eastern Pa (which is pretty close to NJ, so probably did= n't get it there). =C2=A0I then went to college for 4 years in western = ny (Buffalo region) (but my wife whose hometown was in western ny doesn'= ;t say them differently). =C2=A0I then moved out to the boston area and hav= e been here for about 3 years. =C2=A0I'll have to ask some of my family= who haven't moved around. =C2=A0

Where in the hell did I pick this up?

On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Michael Turniansky= <mturniansky= @gmail.com> wrote:
=C2=A0I believe I possibly do. =C2=A0Liste= n to =C2=A0my cinchcast for them
http:= //www.cinchcast.com/gejyspa/160251 =C2=A0. I was born and bred in
central New Jersey.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --gejyspa

On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 1:07 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Odd, I grew up (and presumably=C2=A0acquired=C2=A0by accent) from
> eastern=C2=A0Pennsylvania. =C2=A0Not all THAT close to Canada. =C2=A0I= only do the "ai"
> part of the raising so my "about the house" is not subject t= o this raising
> effect.
> Now I'm kind of curious about what parts of the country see this a= ffect.
> If anybody is willing to help tickle my curiosity, please reply with y= our
> general location and if you say "rider" and "writer&quo= t; identically.
>
> On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 12:35 PM, Oren <get.oren@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Aha. Wikipedia speaks, I am in fact just a very sheltered freak: >>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org= /wiki/North_American_English_regional_phonology#Canadian_raising
>> "the General American pronunciations of=C2=A0rider=C2=A0and= =C2=A0writer=C2=A0are identical
>> ([=C9=B9a=C9=AA=C9=BE=C9=9A]), those American English speakers who= se dialects include either the
>> full or restricted Canadian raising will pronounce them
>> as=C2=A0[=C9=B9a=C9=AA=C9=BE=C9=9A]=C2=A0and=C2=A0[=C9=B9=C9=99=C9= =AA=C9=BE=C9=9A], respectively. Canadian raising is quite strong in
>> most of Ontario and the Maritimes as well as in the Prairies. It i= s receding
>> in British Columbia, and many of these speakers do not raise=C2=A0= /a=C9=AA/=C2=A0before
>> voiceless consonants."
>>
>> Apparently Syracuse, New York qualifies as sufficiently Canadian.<= br> >> On Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 12:11, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> My Midwest USA accent has no difference TTBOMK between the vow= els of
>>> "bold" and "so". Nor are they different in= "pie" and "pipe", as a later post
>>> asserts.
>>>
>>> stevo
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 1:53 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Why exactly is this bad, timos?=C2=A0 The cll does it beca= use how else can we
>>>> explain to nintadni that "o" says english "= bold" not "so"?
>>>>
>>>> I find that now that I have a pretty good grasp of lojban<= br> >>>> pronounciation, I have a new tool to help me better commun= icate differences
>>>> of accent.
>>>>
>>>> Ideally I should just get off my lazy arse and learn IPA t= hough :(
>>>>
>>>> i.e.=C2=A0 lojban vowels don't help me to describe the= difference in
>>>> pronounciation of "b[o]ston".
>>>>
>>>> But the difference between english "pie" and &qu= ot;pipe" is most certainly
>>>> distinguishable using lojban vowels (the difference being = "pai" vs and
>>>> "pyip").=C2=A0 Just try saying "pie" i= n english followed quickly by the "p" sound
>>>> and you will hear that it sounds funny and distinctly not = like "pipe"
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 22, 2011 1:29 PM, "Timo Paulssen"
>>>> <tim= onator@perpetuum-immobile.de> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to th= e Google
>>>> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
>>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners= ?hl=3Den.
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Go= ogle Groups
>>> "Lojban Beginners" group.
>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl= =3Den.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Oren Robinson
>> (315) 569-2888
>> 102 Morrison Ave
>> Somerville, MA 02144
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= Groups
>> "Lojban Beginners" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den= .
>
> --
> You received this message because yo= u are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Lojban Beginners" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> loj= ban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den= .
>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com.
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