From lojban-beginners+bncCNCCoMTMDhD78oTqBBoErHOQrA@googlegroups.com Thu Jan 27 01:23:28 2011 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PiO4b-0005WN-OM; Thu, 27 Jan 2011 01:23:28 -0800 Received: by yxn35 with SMTP id 35sf970626yxn.16 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2011 01:23:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Ve/3DnrT1g2hkLEeOkzv6hqmsmM4O/OBB5IZNlTyjYw=; b=Q3vTbObSiyBwRfxpwTA19alcO6vRePoHI+Li+37B3ns3C9KMGJfD3W0OQNtZ33nmn+ Stjbew0VQ4dBhCHajZ3SptzuAmILP0IZQndqiaZl+Dx3cY+Dvzb6aqAtUHEbGBz+8OLB LAshw+e3nWiovky9YuBHznGTC6fy4wlk/ZCaQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=Ju5YvgJfSBxRftQLhxeCc/bGTCwxLrQuIRmCZYwDD7BDTO2uhowWwg1eAc3Gl2NkMw sPDBb5P3xD0WF4Yl1V1Ble68BvxComvVLLjZj7A5j8Ti7rwU6MGIiZr8/Q/yj+jjW30+ j4UKFVSX7IEbWgMZv9TPn1OyhuQhJDJOXqz2c= Received: by 10.150.185.8 with SMTP id i8mr230797ybf.66.1296120187981; Thu, 27 Jan 2011 01:23:07 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.57.97 with SMTP id b33ls1534450ibh.0.p; Thu, 27 Jan 2011 01:23:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.208.71 with SMTP id gb7mr210964ibb.3.1296120187124; Thu, 27 Jan 2011 01:23:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.208.71 with SMTP id gb7mr210963ibb.3.1296120187089; Thu, 27 Jan 2011 01:23:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iy0-f175.google.com (mail-iy0-f175.google.com [209.85.210.175]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d9si3949257ibq.7.2011.01.27.01.23.06 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 27 Jan 2011 01:23:06 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of selckiku@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.175 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.175; Received: by mail-iy0-f175.google.com with SMTP id 18so1312179iyj.34 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2011 01:23:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.42.172.67 with SMTP id m3mr1863329icz.95.1296120185908; Thu, 27 Jan 2011 01:23:05 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.42.220.2 with HTTP; Thu, 27 Jan 2011 01:22:35 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Stela Selckiku Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 04:22:35 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Complicated parallelism question To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: selckiku@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of selckiku@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.175 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=selckiku@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 10:35 PM, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote: > > Is there a way to use something more precise than {co'e} in the second > phrase without sacrificing much conciseness? Once something is inside of an abstraction it tends to become difficult to extract it again. This would be quite difficult to solve in the general case even if you were tinkering with the language. You might make a special purpose tool to dig things out of one level of abstraction, but then add another level of abstraction and you're lost again! A better solution than making confusing complicated tools for climbing out of abstractions is to try not to dig yourself into that hole in the first place. :) For instance: .i la .loglan. zasti .i mi tcidu cilre lo du'u go'i .i ba za bo go'i lo du'u la .lojban. go'e Also, don't underestimate the usefulness of {cei}. It rarely comes in handy translating how you would say things in another language, because other languages don't have that power. But if you get used to using {cei} it allows you to express things very concisely in a different, Lojbanic way. You're not used to being able to build a complex description of a relation and then keep it handy, applying it again & again. In other languages once you've built something you only have a moment to make repeated use of it with "it" or "that" and then it fades. In Lojban you can make long-term plans, stocking up an arsenal of concepts useful in the story you're telling. For instance: .i mi cilre cei broda lo du'u zasti kei lo bangu fu lo nu tcidu .i broda fi la .loglan. .i ba za bo broda fi la .lojban. That's reasonably concise, but you've also created a potent tool.(*) Now you can say later "ca lo nu broda fi la .lojban. kei ku li'o" (when I did that to Lojban, blah blah blah), except the "that" isn't subject to being confused by every possible referent that comes along. .i broda fi la'o .bangu. Esperanto .bangu. goi .e bu pu lo nu broda fi la .lojban. goi ly. .i ca bo broda so'i da .e bu .i ba lo nu broda fi ly. kei mi co'a broda so'i da ly. gi'e broda so'u po'o da .e bu (I learned about Esperanto before I learned about Lojban. Back then I learned lots about Esperanto. After I learned about Lojban, I started to learn lots about Lojban and only a little about Esperanto.) If you think translating into Lojban is challenging, try translating back out of it after you're juggling a bunch of pro-sumti and pro-bridi! :) mi'e .selkik. mu'o (*) You could make it even more potent by changing "cilre" to "se te se cilre" and leaving off the "fi" everywhere, but I decided to leave in the "fi" so as not to confuse you with too many tricks at once!! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. 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