From lojban-beginners+bncCML0xpmUARC30ofqBBoENgPkNg@googlegroups.com Thu Jan 27 13:53:16 2011 Received: from mail-pw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.160.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PiZmC-0002tx-3b; Thu, 27 Jan 2011 13:53:16 -0800 Received: by pwi2 with SMTP id 2sf1117725pwi.16 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2011 13:53:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=gx0XMERR0Sy5dQJ+3ru+m3pKjwXpfqyRSxB2cMhwZ8g=; b=bDIH8agaP+huw1SjzGjVVXfww2SsAm4CmqwbmX7hOybODRJvn9Vhsd3/A5dH2j/POp G5Dl4OOTvxkLT1f8+L6bdTsRHzuVIOAAyuZWKO+0+XzKVLmfIn7e68ZhqfikG9Rmuo82 oqf9jinh1IipPjsDkTXwJWd+BalWwRN1b/jUs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=MsYtiraaOYLAgkFglblI9trQM0E6vmVQU2RKDs5S2NOkJNXHpUeeC6UHjVbZoRh23R FyoK4y5RBpuXm/0frnNMdiaJHw4hx6X94XBpJyulMt82q70b9G/AagfDCfPhgsrUXxMk +Np8Xwu/yIz+dseb5dJWwNehJj3E4DBhQR2KE= Received: by 10.142.101.9 with SMTP id y9mr152817wfb.12.1296165175498; Thu, 27 Jan 2011 13:52:55 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.2.41 with SMTP id 41ls3159575wfb.0.p; Thu, 27 Jan 2011 13:52:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.200.17 with SMTP id x17mr456017wff.59.1296165174002; Thu, 27 Jan 2011 13:52:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.200.17 with SMTP id x17mr456015wff.59.1296165173946; Thu, 27 Jan 2011 13:52:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pv0-f175.google.com (mail-pv0-f175.google.com [74.125.83.175]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id p40si18802153wfc.6.2011.01.27.13.52.52 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 27 Jan 2011 13:52:52 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.175 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.83.175; Received: by pvd12 with SMTP id 12so382451pvd.34 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2011 13:52:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.214.16 with SMTP id m16mr2355498wfg.365.1296165172761; Thu, 27 Jan 2011 13:52:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.68.21 with HTTP; Thu, 27 Jan 2011 13:52:52 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 16:52:52 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Complicated parallelism question From: Ian Johnson To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.175 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd2e0b8b15424049adaf8ba --000e0cd2e0b8b15424049adaf8ba Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 True, but it would be really really weird to actually need to do that, whereas {se te se} is not at all uncommon to want to do, as we can see. On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 4:28 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > haha, then the shell game could get REALLY confusing: da se te'ai ve'ai ve > ve'ai xe se'ai teldunda de di > > On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 4:20 PM, Ian Johnson wrote: > >> {se te se} and its friends are sufficiently clunky that I'd honestly >> consider proposing cmavo that switch x2 and x*, maybe {te'ai}, {ve'ai}, and >> {xe'ai}, or something. They'd have obvious meanings in terms of current SE >> *when you think about it* but much less obvious when you don't. {te'ai} >> == {te se te}; {ve'ai} == {ve se ve}; {xe'ai} == {xe se xe}. ({se SE se} >> turns out to be the same thing in all these cases.) Of course this starts >> bringing you down the slippery slope of doing x3-x4, x3-x5, and x4-x5 too, >> but that's still only 6 new CV'VV, not that bad for a much more complete SE >> system. >> >> Otherwise a fantastic set of points. >> >> >> mu'o mi'e .latros. >> >> On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 4:22 AM, Stela Selckiku wrote: >> >>> On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 10:35 PM, Alex Rozenshteyn >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > Is there a way to use something more precise than {co'e} in the second >>> > phrase without sacrificing much conciseness? >>> >>> Once something is inside of an abstraction it tends to become >>> difficult to extract it again. This would be quite difficult to solve >>> in the general case even if you were tinkering with the language. You >>> might make a special purpose tool to dig things out of one level of >>> abstraction, but then add another level of abstraction and you're lost >>> again! A better solution than making confusing complicated tools for >>> climbing out of abstractions is to try not to dig yourself into that >>> hole in the first place. :) For instance: >>> >>> .i la .loglan. zasti .i mi tcidu cilre lo du'u go'i .i ba za bo go'i >>> lo du'u la .lojban. go'e >>> >>> Also, don't underestimate the usefulness of {cei}. It rarely comes in >>> handy translating how you would say things in another language, >>> because other languages don't have that power. But if you get used to >>> using {cei} it allows you to express things very concisely in a >>> different, Lojbanic way. You're not used to being able to build a >>> complex description of a relation and then keep it handy, applying it >>> again & again. In other languages once you've built something you >>> only have a moment to make repeated use of it with "it" or "that" and >>> then it fades. In Lojban you can make long-term plans, stocking up an >>> arsenal of concepts useful in the story you're telling. For instance: >>> >>> .i mi cilre cei broda lo du'u zasti kei lo bangu fu lo nu tcidu .i >>> broda fi la .loglan. .i ba za bo broda fi la .lojban. >>> >>> That's reasonably concise, but you've also created a potent tool.(*) >>> Now you can say later "ca lo nu broda fi la .lojban. kei ku li'o" >>> (when I did that to Lojban, blah blah blah), except the "that" isn't >>> subject to being confused by every possible referent that comes along. >>> >>> .i broda fi la'o .bangu. Esperanto .bangu. goi .e bu pu lo nu broda fi >>> la .lojban. goi ly. .i ca bo broda so'i da .e bu .i ba lo nu broda fi >>> ly. kei mi co'a broda so'i da ly. gi'e broda so'u po'o da .e bu >>> >>> (I learned about Esperanto before I learned about Lojban. Back then I >>> learned lots about Esperanto. After I learned about Lojban, I started >>> to learn lots about Lojban and only a little about Esperanto.) >>> >>> If you think translating into Lojban is challenging, try translating >>> back out of it after you're juggling a bunch of pro-sumti and >>> pro-bridi! :) >>> >>> mi'e .selkik. mu'o >>> >>> (*) You could make it even more potent by changing "cilre" to "se te >>> se cilre" and leaving off the "fi" everywhere, but I decided to leave >>> in the "fi" so as not to confuse you with too many tricks at once!! >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Lojban Beginners" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >>> >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --000e0cd2e0b8b15424049adaf8ba Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable True, but it would be really really weird to actually need to do that, wher= eas {se te se} is not at all uncommon to want to do, as we can see.

=
On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 4:28 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gma= il.com> wrote:
haha, then the sh= ell game could get REALLY confusing: da se te'ai ve'ai ve ve'ai= xe se'ai teldunda de di

On Thu, Ja= n 27, 2011 at 4:20 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:
=
{se te se} and its friends are sufficiently cl= unky that I'd honestly consider proposing cmavo that switch x2 and x*, = maybe {te'ai}, {ve'ai}, and {xe'ai}, or something. They'd h= ave obvious meanings in terms of current SE when you think about it = but much less obvious when you don't. {te'ai} =3D=3D {te se te}; {v= e'ai} =3D=3D {ve se ve}; {xe'ai} =3D=3D {xe se xe}. ({se SE se} tur= ns out to be the same thing in all these cases.) Of course this starts brin= ging you down the slippery slope of doing x3-x4, x3-x5, and x4-x5 too, but = that's still only 6 new CV'VV, not that bad for a much more complet= e SE system.

Otherwise a fantastic set of points.


mu'o mi'e .lat= ros.

On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 4= :22 AM, Stela Selckiku <selckiku@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 10:35 PM, Alex Rozenshteyn <rpglover64@gmail.com> wrote:
>
Once something is inside of an abstraction it tends to become
difficult to extract it again. =A0This would be quite difficult to solve in the general case even if you were tinkering with the language. =A0You might make a special purpose tool to dig things out of one level of
abstraction, but then add another level of abstraction and you're lost<= br> again! =A0A better solution than making confusing complicated tools for
climbing out of abstractions is to try not to dig yourself into that
hole in the first place. :) =A0For instance:

.i la .loglan. zasti .i mi tcidu cilre lo du'u go'i .i ba za bo go&= #39;i
lo du'u la .lojban. go'e

Also, don't underestimate the usefulness of {cei}. =A0It rarely comes i= n
handy translating how you would say things in another language,
because other languages don't have that power. =A0But if you get used t= o
using {cei} it allows you to express things very concisely in a
different, Lojbanic way. =A0You're not used to being able to build a complex description of a relation and then keep it handy, applying it
again & again. =A0In other languages once you've built something yo= u
only have a moment to make repeated use of it with "it" or "= that" and
then it fades. =A0In Lojban you can make long-term plans, stocking up an arsenal of concepts useful in the story you're telling. =A0For instance= :

.i mi cilre cei broda lo du'u zasti kei lo bangu fu lo nu tcidu .i
broda fi la .loglan. .i ba za bo broda fi la .lojban.

That's reasonably concise, but you've also created a potent tool.(*= )
Now you can say later "ca lo nu broda fi la .lojban. kei ku li'o&q= uot;
(when I did that to Lojban, blah blah blah), except the "that" is= n't
subject to being confused by every possible referent that comes along.

.i broda fi la'o .bangu. Esperanto .bangu. goi .e bu pu lo nu broda fi<= br> la .lojban. goi ly. .i ca bo broda so'i da .e bu .i ba lo nu broda fi ly. kei mi co'a broda so'i da ly. gi'e broda so'u po'o = da .e bu

(I learned about Esperanto before I learned about Lojban. =A0Back then I learned lots about Esperanto. =A0After I learned about Lojban, I started to learn lots about Lojban and only a little about Esperanto.)

If you think translating into Lojban is challenging, try translating
back out of it after you're juggling a bunch of pro-sumti and
pro-bridi! :)

mi'e .selkik. mu'o

(*) You could make it even more potent by changing "cilre" to &qu= ot;se te
se cilre" and leaving off the "fi" everywhere, but I decided= to leave
in the "fi" so as not to confuse you with too many tricks at once= !!

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To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
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