From lojban-beginners+bncCNCCoMTMDhDhoojqBBoE463G5Q@googlegroups.com Thu Jan 27 16:44:38 2011 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PicS3-0007k7-0n; Thu, 27 Jan 2011 16:44:38 -0800 Received: by gwb20 with SMTP id 20sf1565638gwb.16 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2011 16:44:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=LjdEj9s9dQKW9TF7A5AIMqyOjsEJPzrVWM9F8Ufb8B8=; b=diONKwDUJ/io95sMGs2YbclozCAO+CvzREJ+yz1UCyVu8f79GsFH5M3+NmahEcpbMQ fvSMnupwwNQsBroRBvD00WcltRbfvi8bZ+ct1ED2YNGlT4c9vEl2w2jVsiVcqho/e3AO 3GLNK1EwtWDSBJ3d3FTsRoidSocQQO9JDRF/o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=qUJ0/4PJnirBtG33lQm3crtavEBskbyo7/31c1DlKrtKCeB4+aKOt7NDpOc6Xxuk5Z XQwZzyWybXE0pc5uVLIIugVpN3kp9qxu4SGkYOCWZPQFIbPqYmuuFkLAxvlBbOiy1S4u OTUv8DxGSUmUmH3yht3uMxHCsDLhNm9sr/yjc= Received: by 10.147.170.20 with SMTP id x20mr148189yao.25.1296175457306; Thu, 27 Jan 2011 16:44:17 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.2.82 with SMTP id 18ls303180ibi.2.p; Thu, 27 Jan 2011 16:44:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.42.225.196 with SMTP id it4mr293507icb.82.1296175455542; Thu, 27 Jan 2011 16:44:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.42.225.196 with SMTP id it4mr293506icb.82.1296175455497; Thu, 27 Jan 2011 16:44:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iw0-f180.google.com (mail-iw0-f180.google.com [209.85.214.180]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id jo1si2267555icb.1.2011.01.27.16.44.14 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 27 Jan 2011 16:44:14 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of selckiku@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.180 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.180; Received: by iwn37 with SMTP id 37so4649514iwn.25 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2011 16:44:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.42.225.5 with SMTP id iq5mr1574582icb.430.1296175454341; Thu, 27 Jan 2011 16:44:14 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.42.220.2 with HTTP; Thu, 27 Jan 2011 16:43:44 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Stela Selckiku Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 19:43:44 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Complicated parallelism question To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: selckiku@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of selckiku@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.180 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=selckiku@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 12:46 PM, Alex Rozenshteyn w= rote: > Beautiful.=A0 uacai uisai .o'a .i'o > Although {lo'u se te se le'u .oi .a'unai co'e} It's fine once you get used to it. The way it works is inside to outside, so {te se broda} means apply se, then apply te, "te (se broda)" (result: x3 x1 x2). We make complicated ones for fun (I've named it {la cakselkei} or "the Shell Game", after the traditional con-game), but the only way it's ever actually used in normal conversation is with a repetition, like {se te se} or {xe ve xe}, and what it does in those cases is even simpler: It switches the two places. If you're making a simple bridi that's not necessary; tagging with FA is much easier. But there are a few situations where switching places (almost always x2 and x3) is the most natural way to deal with a situation. The most common of these is when combining two selbri, like with {gi'e} or {je}. The x1 places line up, but then you want the second place to be the x2 of one of the selbri and the x3 of the other. Artificial example: I see you and give you something: {mi viska gi'e se te se dunda vau do} > Makes me wonder, though; is there a way to use ce'u or something to mark = a > place deeply nested in a bridi and make that one of the places of the bri= di? I can think of a few ways. One is indeed to use {ce'u}. A property is a sumti like any other, so you can assign it a pro-sumti and then throw it around: ko'a goi lo ka mi cilre lo du'u ce'u zasti kei fu lo nu tcidu OK, now {ko'a} means the property of being something that I've learned the fact of its existence by reading. Now, to {ckaji ko'a} is to have your existence learned about by me reading! So: la .loglan. ckaji ko'a .i ba za bo la .lojban. go'i The other way that occurs to me is just to give a definition for a word, in one of the normal ways we give definitions, like with {xy xi pa} (x subscript 1, which we usually lazily write as x1), etc. .i .ai mi ba zi pilno zo broda .i zo broda cu se smuni ca'e lo du'u mi cilre lo du'u xy xi pa zasti kei fu lo nu tcidu .i la .loglan. broda .i ba za bo la .lojban. broda Another, and actually even more common, approach is to invent a lujvo on the spot, which can even enrich the language if the lujvo you invent turns out to be generally useful. For instance if you want to talk about learning the existence of things by reading, you might invent {tidzatcli} (tcidu zei zasti zei cilre). Frankly, people (I'm looking at you, Xorxes and Gejyspa) usually actually just make up lujvo on the spot and use only their short forms and don't give a definition and expect you to decipher them and understand them from context! Which surprisingly is often possible, if somewhat of a brain-stretcher. But giving a definition could be helpful. :) mi'e la stela selckiku mu'o --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.