From lojban-beginners+bncCOjSjrXVGBCDtojqBBoEih1twA@googlegroups.com Thu Jan 27 17:25:45 2011 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Pid5p-0006z0-TE; Thu, 27 Jan 2011 17:25:45 -0800 Received: by vws1 with SMTP id 1sf1856382vws.16 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2011 17:25:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=lXe1/SoH64rybIAyYMQv1sGvWJ3zF5kdU6ZrRML7qh8=; b=cg0WI7gEp7xOqCUT6zVRw/jU0xb1jg0ydMlZS+tBpgli45yX74bZFdw7TSlzD2c6G0 7wCB29DF6B1JHFeVwaM3Q6rzBVIs0XyfK3smTAZDz7+9e1Chvp2hJn20+HLX02PKRKC9 pOCpcIkfdonix8Zgu8uLi/A4kCw5wvmRYYo7w= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=mGGQCxYX0GenFo9HjPS+2/7878nQLJzB+qzs8ooGKtV8SXDrgQ8+/oF4ugIVubI2o1 Zsm8izHJR8zD4qYAxD2Pdilfr81H+6w+Z+ifYvNvXvesp/kdoD6BB++VkmZLyKYbqTpx NiSF3ys3Rd4+hAZqMwgZKBsJpx/Y4GgkoVE1c= Received: by 10.220.192.133 with SMTP id dq5mr130855vcb.30.1296177923814; Thu, 27 Jan 2011 17:25:23 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.89.74 with SMTP id d10ls297374vcm.5.p; Thu, 27 Jan 2011 17:25:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.220.192.66 with SMTP id dp2mr436094vcb.4.1296177922248; Thu, 27 Jan 2011 17:25:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.220.192.66 with SMTP id dp2mr436092vcb.4.1296177922199; Thu, 27 Jan 2011 17:25:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qw0-f44.google.com (mail-qw0-f44.google.com [209.85.216.44]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id t10si1388077vcc.11.2011.01.27.17.25.21 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 27 Jan 2011 17:25:21 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.44 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.44; Received: by mail-qw0-f44.google.com with SMTP id 2so2949164qwi.31 for ; Thu, 27 Jan 2011 17:25:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.200.138 with SMTP id ew10mr2362198qab.44.1296177920831; Thu, 27 Jan 2011 17:25:20 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.220.118.212 with HTTP; Thu, 27 Jan 2011 17:25:20 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 20:25:20 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Complicated parallelism question From: Luke Bergen To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.44 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf30050df6896f84049addf03d --20cf30050df6896f84049addf03d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I recall reading in the CLL somewhere that the choice to not make ter like it's brothers was made because nobody wanted to make te take over {tel} because it would mean that stela would need to be given a different rafsi. And after "the great rafsi relocation" (whatever that was), nobody wanted to have to do that. I could be wrong, but I believe I read this somewhere or other in the CLL. And I HAVE heard that argument before selkik, and I puzaco'a agree. But it's definitely a justification-after-the-fact and not a reason-for-choosing ;) On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 7:56 PM, Stela Selckiku wrote: > On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 6:42 PM, Luke Bergen > wrote: > > Listen up nintadni because I STILL make this mistake regularly. se te ve > xe > > are the "swapping" cmavo. The rafsi of these cmavo are sel ter vel xel > > respectively. meanwhile tel is the rafsi for stela. Do not think that > if > > you say {teldunda} you are saying {te dunda}, you are in fact saying > {stela > > zei dunda}. > > As I seem to be one of the only people this makes sense to, I'll try > to justify it. By far the most common conversions are se/sel and > te/ter. Giving those different sounds helps keep them distinct. It > gives a little variety to the (many many) lujvo with conversions in > them, so that all the lujvo aren't el-el-el-el-el. On the other hand, > ve/vel and xe/xel are actually rather rare, since not all gismu have > an x4 or x5 and even when they do they have more obscure meanings. So > making them fit a pattern makes them easier to memorize, but doesn't > make the language sound too homogeneous. I'm not sure if that's the > original motivation for sel-ter-vel-xel, but that's how I've > rationalized it, anyway. :) > > mi'e la stela selckiku mu'o > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --20cf30050df6896f84049addf03d Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I recall reading in the CLL somewhere that the choice to not make ter like = it's brothers was made because nobody wanted to make te take over {tel}= because it would mean that stela would need to be given a different rafsi.= =A0And after "the great rafsi relocation" (whatever that was), n= obody wanted to have to do that.

I could be wrong, but I believe I read this somewhere or oth= er in the CLL.

And I HAVE heard that argument befo= re selkik, and I puzaco'a agree. =A0But it's definitely a justifica= tion-after-the-fact and not a reason-for-choosing ;)

On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 7:56 PM, Stela = Selckiku <selcki= ku@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Jan 27, 2011 at 6:42 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Listen up nintadni because I STILL make this mistake regularly. =A0se = te ve xe
> are the "swapping" cmavo. =A0The rafsi of these cmavo are se= l ter=A0vel xel
> respectively. =A0meanwhile tel=A0is the rafsi for stela. =A0Do not thi= nk that if
> you say {teldunda} you are saying {te dunda}, you are in fact saying {= stela
> zei dunda}.

As I seem to be one of the only people this makes sense to, I'll = try
to justify it. =A0By far the most common conversions are se/sel and
te/ter. =A0Giving those different sounds helps keep them distinct. =A0It gives a little variety to the (many many) lujvo with conversions in
them, so that all the lujvo aren't el-el-el-el-el. =A0On the other hand= ,
ve/vel and xe/xel are actually rather rare, since not all gismu have
an x4 or x5 and even when they do they have more obscure meanings. =A0So making them fit a pattern makes them easier to memorize, but doesn't make the language sound too homogeneous. =A0I'm not sure if that's = the
original motivation for sel-ter-vel-xel, but that's how I've
rationalized it, anyway. :)

mi'e la stela selckiku mu'o

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