From lojban-beginners+bncCOjSjrXVGBDV0ZTpBBoE4xlw3w@googlegroups.com Wed Jan 05 18:28:59 2011 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Pafaw-000879-F8; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 18:28:58 -0800 Received: by gwj17 with SMTP id 17sf15040284gwj.16 for ; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 18:28:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=4JhFVrSKMXFw/WRPcZU3BQ2FqFPb5rZVUkO885itaLs=; b=kqTrrTgYDAhqGGTJMgVTPNm3x/9pd7rb3E1EEHT0s313xLf1qFiKJgFGkJL6o4oxQd 3LJTPPN3tJGhCpkZ7GUeQjfv+EPDZSkv3n4zSpQDnIk9OTvP3PqSaem3fUga2dU3sUmE tjs487rYWhBYkdCert2yeyiyOnO2bXJe8t8L0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=m8+KJHPiGwQLwNoGgbb6OOE045q6LrWrDaqVAoFMqv5YG+ZFGyxwSiZL5li+K5mmA/ eSjicc7STM62dflA+JN8ToAzMeZVn95q9BHvH7d5dSXYjOiWvi4RK7WFZvsFk0+BIu0P 7ZkU23SXQjUju/FDfznnOuHU94MlydcLgEc8o= Received: by 10.100.254.19 with SMTP id b19mr656241ani.12.1294280917343; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 18:28:37 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.76.225 with SMTP id d33ls12875799ibk.2.p; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 18:28:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.172.146 with SMTP id l18mr8868429ibz.2.1294280916609; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 18:28:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.172.146 with SMTP id l18mr8868428ibz.2.1294280916583; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 18:28:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iw0-f173.google.com (mail-iw0-f173.google.com [209.85.214.173]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m30si5319731ibu.6.2011.01.05.18.28.35 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 05 Jan 2011 18:28:35 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.173 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.173; Received: by iwn40 with SMTP id 40so17334535iwn.4 for ; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 18:28:35 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.207.84 with SMTP id fx20mr23605367ibb.62.1294280915454; Wed, 05 Jan 2011 18:28:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.14.197 with HTTP; Wed, 5 Jan 2011 18:28:35 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 21:28:35 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Implied {ko} From: Luke Bergen To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.173 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=90e6ba4fc514348b4504992442c7 --90e6ba4fc514348b4504992442c7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ok, so maybe it was a poor example. How about {lo se danlu be lo gerku cu se zbasu zo'e lo lanbi joi lo djacu joi li'o}. If I said this in a room full of biologists the obvious {zo'e} is {zi'o}. I seem to remember seeing an example like this somewhere or other. So are you saying that {zo'e} is inappropriate here? Also, I'm a little uneasy about the fact that it sounds like you're saying that {mi citka noda} is something very similar to {mi na citka}. 2011/1/5 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 9:58 PM, Luke Bergen wrote= : > > Sorry, when I said that "zo'e can be replaced by anything" I meant > indicate > > that: > > zo'e means something like [some thing goes here and let context decide > what > > it is]. That context could be anything. zo'e can be understood to be > {lo > > gerku}, {lo mlatu} or {lo ka prami kei}. That's what I meant by "zo'e > can > > be replaced by anything". > > That's mixing up words with their referents. The referent of "zo'e" > can be a dog, and so is the referent of "lo gerku". That doesn't mean > that "zo'e" is somehow replacing "lo gerku". > > > Apparently it can't though (ko, noda, ma, etc...) > > Because none of those are words with referents. (Well, "ko" is in > part, but not only that.) > > > I guess I'm fine with all of those although I'm kind of confused by nod= a > > though. Would you say that it would be ok to "replace" {zi'o} with > {noda}? > > i.e. is {mi citka noda} a valid way to understand somebody who says {m= i > > citka zi'o}? > > If you say "mi citka zi'o" you are saying that you eat, If you say "mi > citka no da" you are saying you don't eat. > > > If so, then my point of contention is with the statement that > > {zo'e} cannot be understood to mean {zi'o}. > > There has been quite a lot of discussion about that one. The problem > here is that many gismu place structures are so bloated that in > practice "zo'e" is sometimes used with the sense of "zi'o", although > logically it shouldn't be. > > > If I say {mi jinvi fo zo'e} is it not possible that I am claiming to > opine > > something with no basis (i.e. blind faith)? > > That would be misusing "jinvi", which is for opinions with some basis. > There's "krici" when you don't want any basis involved. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. --90e6ba4fc514348b4504992442c7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ok, so maybe it was a poor example. =A0How about {lo se danlu be lo gerku c= u se zbasu zo'e lo lanbi joi lo djacu joi li'o}. =A0If I said this = in a room full of biologists the obvious {zo'e} is {zi'o}. =A0I see= m to remember seeing an example like this somewhere or other.

So are you saying that {zo'e} is=A0inappropriate=A0here?=

Also, I'm a little uneasy about the fact that= it sounds like you're saying that {mi citka noda} is something very si= milar to {mi na citka}.

2011/1/5 Jorge Llamb=EDas = <jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 9:58 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sorry, when I said that "zo'e can be replaced by anything&quo= t; I meant indicate
> that:
> zo'e means something like [some thing goes here and let context de= cide what
> it is]. =A0That context could be anything. =A0zo'e can be understo= od to be {lo
> gerku}, {lo mlatu} or {lo ka prami kei}. =A0That's what I meant by= "zo'e can
> be replaced by anything".

That's mixing up words with their referents. The referent of &quo= t;zo'e"
can be a dog, and so is the referent of "lo gerku". That doesn= 9;t mean
that "zo'e" is somehow replacing "lo gerku".

> Apparently it can't though (ko, noda, ma, etc...)

Because none of those are words with referents. (Well, "ko"= is in
part, but not only that.)

> I guess I'm fine with all of those although I'm kind of confus= ed by noda
> though. =A0Would you say that it would be ok to "replace" {z= i'o} with {noda}?
> =A0i.e. is {mi citka noda} a valid way to understand somebody who says= {mi
> citka zi'o}?

If you say "mi citka zi'o" you are saying that you eat,= If you say "mi
citka no da" you are saying you don't eat.

>=A0If so, then my point of contention is with the statement that
> {zo'e} cannot be understood to mean {zi'o}.

There has been quite a lot of discussion about that one. The problem<= br> here is that many gismu place structures are so bloated that in
practice "zo'e" is sometimes used with the sense of "zi&= #39;o", although
logically it shouldn't be.

> If I say {mi jinvi fo zo'e} is it not possible that I am claiming = to opine
> something with no basis (i.e. blind faith)?

That would be misusing "jinvi", which is for opinions with = some basis.
There's "krici" when you don't want any basis involved.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
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