From lojban-beginners+bncCOib25n_BhDU0JfpBBoE9mZFBA@googlegroups.com Thu Jan 06 08:06:01 2011 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PasLb-0004Au-Qn; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 08:06:01 -0800 Received: by wwb34 with SMTP id 34sf18164356wwb.16 for ; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 08:05:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=bxzQV591FMIOecc3ktsIvDgEWbjWUeF7bcS3GZ2IFfM=; b=cwU3igeJHUvtvw0wDnxmqfLsj0O5b7vSUXl3krKPX0+ttS6OsZ50YwlbYopS1PHOhO 36D7gqymEarjpICknL+KwqKeyGaGXPwnuYVN2O/s4oNHqpUorfMm8AJ+cplxr5DNkeQm by/+tZjfgMFqKhDo1iKx2345JrFoG74bjA5sw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=yQ58B+Il2rHbZUxeJxS7M4V0WgBPUeXZTx2jrPfcBr8LbavnL9mvvTm9ia2NcFfDuM B7m1EA4naw/5MfexweQm96uxSC1USoUmRAh+w4QW9YPX2hBRaarQQym18C6GrAxJHgXc GFRS3fNDzyGbluLs7Vv2T3bLylg4WXnwJC3NU= Received: by 10.216.39.135 with SMTP id d7mr3336012web.11.1294329940537; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 08:05:40 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.14.25.20 with SMTP id y20ls1086903eey.1.p; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 08:05:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.14.127.80 with SMTP id c56mr272076eei.10.1294329939299; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 08:05:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.14.127.80 with SMTP id c56mr272075eei.10.1294329939206; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 08:05:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ey0-f170.google.com (mail-ey0-f170.google.com [209.85.215.170]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id z15si542471eeh.6.2011.01.06.08.05.38 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 06 Jan 2011 08:05:38 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.170 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.215.170; Received: by eyf5 with SMTP id 5so6637345eyf.29 for ; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 08:05:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.34.5 with SMTP id j5mr18111602ebd.27.1294329937926; Thu, 06 Jan 2011 08:05:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.213.28.73 with HTTP; Thu, 6 Jan 2011 08:05:37 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2011 11:05:37 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Implied {ko} From: Alex Rozenshteyn To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: rpglover64@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.170 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rpglover64@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174be0942c18e804992fac12 --0015174be0942c18e804992fac12 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable {mi na citka noda} means "It is not true that I eat nothing", which I think would be equivalent to {mi citka da} or "There exists something such that I eat it" i.e. "I eat something" On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 10:56 AM, Luke Bergen wrote: > Ok, after thinking about it for a while, I think I finally understand wha= t > about it makes me so squeamish. > > For as long as I have been studying lojban I have been operating under th= e > [apparently] false belief that a selbri sets the claim and sumti essentia= lly > just add specificity. i.e. if somebody says {citka} then I assume that t= hat > person is making a positive claim about "eating". If somebody says {na > citka} then I assume that that person is making is making a positive clai= m > about "not eating". I've been assuming that any sumti I add just adds mo= re > information (but does NOT change the fundamental claim). > > So {mi citka no da} =3D {mi na citka} feels funny because something that > should just be adding more information is actually changing the fundament= al > claim. I guess that's wrong though. > > So, mental exercise: if sumti can effectively change the selbri... > > mi citka + (add noda to x2) =3D mi na citka > > mi na citka + ??? =3D mi citka > > mi na citka noda sounds like "I don't eat nothing".... does that mean {mi > citka roda}?! oops, I accidentally the whole universe. > On Jan 6, 2011 7:18 AM, "Jorge Llamb=EDas" wrote: > > On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 11:28 PM, Luke Bergen > wrote: > >> ok, so maybe it was a poor example. How about {lo se danlu be lo gerk= u > cu > >> se zbasu zo'e lo lanbi joi lo djacu joi li'o}. > > > > (You need some sumti after the last "joi". "li'o" is a UI, not a KOhA.) > > > >> If I said this in a room > >> full of biologists the obvious {zo'e} is {zi'o}. I seem to remember > seeing > >> an example like this somewhere or other. > > > > When you say things like "the obvious {zo'e} is {zi'o}" you are > > thinking that the word "zo'e" is replacing some other word. But it is > > not. "zo'e" is a word with referents, provided by the context. "zi'o" > > is not such a thing. > > > >> So are you saying that {zo'e} is inappropriate here? > > > > I would say "zbasu" is the one that is inappropriate, since that is > > not the relationship that they want to claim. > > > >> Also, I'm a little uneasy about the fact that it sounds like you're > saying > >> that {mi citka noda} is something very similar to {mi na citka}. > > > > What about it makes you uneasy? They are indeed very similar, > > practically identical in meaning: > > > > no da zo'u mi citka da > > =3D naku su'o da zo'u mi citka da > > > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps > "Lojban Beginners" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > --=20 Alex R --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. --0015174be0942c18e804992fac12 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable {mi na citka noda} means "It is not true that I eat nothing", whi= ch I think would be equivalent to {mi citka da} or "There exists somet= hing such that I eat it" i.e. "I eat something"

On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 10:56 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrot= e:

Ok, after thinking about it for a while, I think I finally understand wh= at about it makes me so=A0squeamish.=A0

For as long as I have been st= udying lojban I have been=A0operating=A0under the [apparently] false belief= that a selbri sets the claim and sumti essentially just add specificity. = =A0i.e. if somebody says {citka} then I assume that that person is making a= positive claim about "eating". =A0If somebody says {na citka} th= en I assume that that person is making is making a positive claim about &qu= ot;not eating". =A0I've been assuming that any sumti I add just ad= ds more information (but does NOT change the fundamental claim). =A0

So {mi citka no da} =3D {mi na citka} feels funny because something that= should just be adding more information is actually changing the fundamenta= l claim. =A0I guess that's wrong though.

So, mental exercise: if = sumti can effectively change the selbri...

mi citka + (add noda to x2) =3D mi na citka

mi na citka + ??? =3D = mi citka

mi na citka noda sounds like "I don't eat nothing&q= uot;.... does that mean {mi citka roda}?! =A0oops, I accidentally the whole= universe.

On Jan 6, 2011 7:18 AM, "Jorge Llamb=EDas&q= uot; <jjllambi= as@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 5, 201= 1 at 11:28 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> ok, so maybe it was a poor example. =A0How about {lo se danlu be l= o gerku cu
>> se zbasu zo'e lo lanbi joi lo djacu joi li'o= }.
>
> (You need some sumti after the last "joi". &q= uot;li'o" is a UI, not a KOhA.)
>
>>=A0If I said this in a room
>> full of biologists= the obvious {zo'e} is {zi'o}. =A0I seem to remember seeing
>= > an example like this somewhere or other.
>
> When you say= things like "the obvious {zo'e} is {zi'o}" you are
> thinking that the word "zo'e" is replacing some other wo= rd. But it is
> not. "zo'e" is a word with referents, p= rovided by the context. "zi'o"
> is not such a thing. >
>> So are you saying that {zo'e} is=A0inappropriate=A0he= re?
>
> I would say "zbasu" is the one that is inapp= ropriate, since that is
> not the relationship that they want to clai= m.
>
>> Also, I'm a little uneasy about the fact that it soun= ds like you're saying
>> that {mi citka noda} is something ver= y similar to {mi na citka}.
>
> What about it makes you uneasy= ? They are indeed very similar,
> practically identical in meaning:
>
> no da zo'u mi c= itka da
> =3D naku su'o da zo'u mi citka da
>
> = mu'o mi'e xorxes
>
> --
> You received this mes= sage because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners= " group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com= .
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-be= ginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.= com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.
>

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To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
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For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den.



--
=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
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