From lojban-beginners+bncCOjSjrXVGBCml6vqBBoEY6NW-g@googlegroups.com Thu Feb 03 07:37:38 2011 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Pl1FQ-0001DI-TA; Thu, 03 Feb 2011 07:37:38 -0800 Received: by gyb11 with SMTP id 11sf886839gyb.16 for ; Thu, 03 Feb 2011 07:37:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=peaf8BrDiGQd4F2ThiV5LZpHQVXwi81oB6hdYnguYAo=; b=ofc/Q/BfFXE7+lWXEVpPYY19zSBNnohlPuY65pn00Xd3xTLkRhhVSLMoB0qa7InZNY 0zJAKDLRf4EGKj6nZm0JBIu2sR5DELdcLvkg/828TaYJVUfzav2py86oGReNpm3OWLVA JEr77JUQ0BDd2uktCvK2fn98m85qw5XXxsutw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=s/0pgQoofJBWds2LEZW+22u17tTVPh0/O48ISbSNKCkVOjDf50dcHgR54dJShOQXNs 53B2nB37QkZErwY+e5joq9asMODr0p0t9pGF19pMadrVQXEEiSpDOiNTse1wiu27lyMT d0BQiE9+zBmgjDnfiVguDaXEypW9tFvb1gWjE= Received: by 10.150.185.6 with SMTP id i6mr1071319ybf.75.1296747430953; Thu, 03 Feb 2011 07:37:10 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.2.82 with SMTP id 18ls1811391ibi.2.p; Thu, 03 Feb 2011 07:37:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.35.13 with SMTP id n13mr5279462ibd.9.1296747429802; Thu, 03 Feb 2011 07:37:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.35.13 with SMTP id n13mr5279461ibd.9.1296747429747; Thu, 03 Feb 2011 07:37:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iy0-f176.google.com (mail-iy0-f176.google.com [209.85.210.176]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id j25si202842ibb.0.2011.02.03.07.37.08 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 03 Feb 2011 07:37:08 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.176 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.176; Received: by iyb26 with SMTP id 26so1415723iyb.7 for ; Thu, 03 Feb 2011 07:37:08 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.10.141 with SMTP id p13mr11742530ibp.131.1296747428530; Thu, 03 Feb 2011 07:37:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.200.194 with HTTP; Thu, 3 Feb 2011 07:37:08 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20110202194422.GC54504@alice.local> <201102022216.26133.phma@phma.optus.nu> <20110203143926.GA56439@alice.local> Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 10:37:08 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] lo nu valsi rapli cu xe tanru fo ma From: Luke Bergen To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.176 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00221532c7acd74cb2049b62898a --00221532c7acd74cb2049b62898a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 wow, a red-letter day, this. lo tcejbocertu no'u gejyspa cu menli galfi va'o lo stidi befami .o'acai On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 10:17 AM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > No, no. Your definition is better. Sorry. Of course it makes > sense that the x2 would be the grandchild, and the x3 relegated to a > subbridi. > --gejyspa > > > On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 10:08 AM, Luke Bergen > wrote: > > whoops, I guess my guess at the definition of it was wrong then. I > assume > > that a gloss like "grandmother" would leave the grandchild as the x2. > Seems > > like a more important place. But I guess that's arbitrary. There is no > > definition of mamymamta in jbovlaste. Maybe when I get home from work > I'll > > add it (unless someone beats me to it... or I forget). > > > > On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Michael Turniansky < > mturniansky@gmail.com> > > wrote: > >> > >> On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 9:39 AM, .alyn.post. > >> wrote: > >> > Will you help clarify some confusion I'm having, then?: > >> > > >> > lo mamta => mother > >> (a/some mothers) > >> > lo se mamta => child (not quite the right gloss, I don't think that > >> > matters in this case) > >> (child of a mother) > >> > mamta => mothering/motherness? > >> > > >> > >> No. "mamta" is not "mothering/motherness" That would be "ka > >> mamta". "mamta" is a relationship. Something m1 is the mother of > >> something else, m2. > >> > >> > lo ponse => owner > >> an owner/some owners > >> > lo se ponse => possesion > >> Yes, if you mean that as a noun -- a possession/some possessions. > >> > ponse => possessing/ownership? > >> > >> No. That would be nu ponse, or ka ponse, or za'i ponse, depending > >> on how you mean it. Again, it's a relationship. "p1 is the > >> possessor of p2 under law p3" > >> > >> > > >> > I don't quite get how one gets grandmother out of mamymamta, though > >> > I've confused the special significance that an x1 place has before. > >> > > >> > It seems in this case though that mamymamta either takes one meaning > >> > for the first mam (mothering) and another meaning for the second > >> > (mother), or that my gloss for mamta is wrong and it doesn't express > >> > motherness at all, but an actual mother. > >> > > >> > What am not understanding? > >> > > >> > >> Remember that a tanru, "x1 mamta mamta x2", means that x1 is a > >> mother type of mother of x2. The exact relationship between the > >> seltau and the tertau is up to the user. Just like a "barda gerku" is > >> a "big type of dog" (presumably a big dog, "ko'a cu barda je gerku", > >> but maybe, for example, a type of dog that a big person would own > >> ("ko'a me lo gerku da'i po lo barda")) or a "gerku ponse" is a "dog > >> type of owner", presumably a dog owner ("ko'a cu ponse lo gerku") but > >> possibly describing my dog up above ("ko'a cu gerku je ponse"), or > >> possibly some other type of relationship ("ko'a ponse fi tu'a lo > >> gerku", he possess things the way a dog thinks about possession (i.e. > >> it's here, it's mine). So a mamta mamta is most probably "ko'a cu > >> mamta lo mamta", but it could also be many other things)). But once > >> you lujvoize it, it has only one meaning, the one the author defines, > >> which in this case is exactly that meaning. "x1 is the mother of x2, > >> who is the mother x3" > >> > >> Have I helped clear up anything? > >> > >> > -Alan > >> > > >> > > >> > On Thu, Feb 03, 2011 at 09:26:02AM -0500, Luke Bergen wrote: > >> >> that makes the most sense to me.. although my first thought when I > >> >> saw > >> >> {ponse ponse} was something like {ba'e ponse}... not that I know > >> >> what the > >> >> difference between {ponse} and {ba'e ponse} is but... that was my > >> >> first > >> >> thought. (though as I said, I do like gejyspa's interpretation > >> >> better). > >> >> > >> >> On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 8:25 AM, Michael Turniansky > >> >> <[1]mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> An owner of an owner, I suppose... > >> >> > >> >> lo mi gerku cu ponse lo bolci .iseni'ibo mi ponse ponse > >> >> --gejyspa > >> >> On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 10:16 PM, Pierre Abbat > >> >> <[2]phma@phma.optus.nu> > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > On Wednesday 02 February 2011 14:44:22 .alyn.post. wrote: > >> >> >> .i fo ma fu lo nu valsi rapli cu tanru .i lu ponse ponse li'u > >> >> mupli > >> >> >> > >> >> >> What does word doubling mean in a tanru? For example: {ponse > >> >> >> ponse} > >> >> > > >> >> > "klakyklaku klakyklaku klaku" is used in The Restaurant of > Many > >> >> Orders > >> >> > for "cried and cried and cried and cried and cried". > "mamymamta" > >> >> (lujvo jenai > >> >> > tanru) means "maternal grandmother", and similarly "pafpatfu". > >> >> I'm not > >> >> sure > >> >> > what "ponse ponse" would mean. > >> >> > > >> >> > Pierre > >> >> > -- > >> >> > I believe in Yellow when I'm in Sweden and in Black when I'm > in > >> >> Wales. > >> >> > > >> >> > -- > >> >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the > >> >> Google > >> >> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. > >> >> > To post to this group, send email to > >> >> [3]lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > >> >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> >> [4]lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > >> >> > For more options, visit this group at > >> >> [5]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the > Google > >> >> Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. > >> >> To post to this group, send email to > >> >> [6]lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > >> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> >> [7]lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > >> >> For more options, visit this group at > >> >> [8]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >> >> Groups > >> >> "Lojban Beginners" group. > >> >> To post to this group, send email to > >> >> lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > >> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > >> >> For more options, visit this group at > >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > >> >> > >> >> References > >> >> > >> >> Visible links > >> >> 1. mailto:mturniansky@gmail.com > >> >> 2. mailto:phma@phma.optus.nu > >> >> 3. mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com > >> >> 4. mailto:lojban-beginners%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > >> >> 5. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en > >> >> 6. mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com > >> >> 7. mailto:lojban-beginners%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > >> >> 8. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en > >> > > >> > -- > >> > .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi > >> > > >> > -- > >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >> > Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. > >> > To post to this group, send email to > lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > >> > For more options, visit this group at > >> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > >> > > >> > > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >> "Lojban Beginners" group. > >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > >> For more options, visit this group at > >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > >> > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "Lojban Beginners" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --00221532c7acd74cb2049b62898a Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable wow, a red-letter day, this. =A0lo tcejbocertu no'u gejyspa cu menli ga= lfi va'o lo stidi befami .o'acai

= On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 10:17 AM, Michael Turniansky <<= a href=3D"mailto:mturniansky@gmail.com">mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
=A0No, no. =A0Your definition is better. = =A0Sorry. =A0Of course it makes
sense that the x2 would be the grandchild, and the x3 relegated to a
subbridi.
=A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa


On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 10:08 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
> whoops, I guess my guess at the definition of it was wrong then. =A0I = assume
> that a gloss like "grandmother" would leave the grandchild a= s the x2. =A0Seems
> like a more important place. =A0But I guess that's arbitrary. =A0T= here is no
> definition of mamymamta in jbovlaste. =A0Maybe when I get home from wo= rk I'll
> add it (unless someone beats me to it... or I forget).
>
> On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 9:39 AM, .alyn.post.
>> <alyn.post@lo= dockikumazvati.org> wrote:
>> > Will you help clarify some confusion I'm having, then?: >> >
>> > lo mamta =A0 =A0=3D> mother
>> (a/some mothers)
>> > lo se mamta =3D> child =A0(not quite the right gloss, I do= n't think that
>> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 matters in this c= ase)
>> (child of a mother)
>> > mamta =A0 =A0 =A0 =3D> mothering/motherness?
>> >
>>
>> =A0 =A0No. =A0"mamta" is not "mothering/motherness&= quot; That would be "ka
>> mamta". =A0"mamta" is a relationship. =A0Something = m1 is the mother of
>> something else, m2.
>>
>> > lo ponse =A0 =A0=3D> owner
>> an owner/some owners
>> > lo se ponse =3D> possesion
>> Yes, if you mean that as a noun -- a possession/some possessions.<= br> >> > ponse =A0 =A0 =A0 =3D> possessing/ownership?
>>
>> =A0No. =A0That would be nu ponse, or ka ponse, or za'i ponse, = depending
>> on how you mean it. =A0 Again, it's a relationship. =A0"p= 1 is the
>> possessor of p2 under law p3"
>>
>> >
>> > I don't quite get how one gets grandmother out of mamymam= ta, though
>> > I've confused the special significance that an x1 place h= as before.
>> >
>> > It seems in this case though that mamymamta either takes one = meaning
>> > for the first mam (mothering) and another meaning for the sec= ond
>> > (mother), or that my gloss for mamta is wrong and it doesn= 9;t express
>> > motherness at all, but an actual mother.
>> >
>> > What am not understanding?
>> >
>>
>> =A0Remember that a tanru, "x1 mamta mamta x2", means tha= t x1 is a
>> mother type of mother of x2. =A0The exact relationship between the=
>> seltau and the tertau is up to the user. =A0Just like a "bard= a gerku" is
>> a "big type of dog" (presumably a big dog, "ko'= a cu barda je gerku",
>> but maybe, for example, a type of dog that a big person would own<= br> >> ("ko'a me lo gerku da'i po lo barda")) or a &quo= t;gerku ponse" is a "dog
>> type of owner", presumably a dog owner ("ko'a cu pon= se lo gerku") but
>> possibly describing my dog up above ("ko'a cu gerku je po= nse"), or
>> possibly some other type of relationship ("ko'a ponse fi = tu'a lo
>> gerku", he possess things the way a dog thinks about possessi= on (i.e.
>> it's here, it's mine). =A0So a mamta mamta is most probabl= y "ko'a cu
>> mamta lo mamta", but it could also be many other things)). = =A0But once
>> you lujvoize it, it has only one meaning, the one the author defin= es,
>> which in this case is exactly that meaning. =A0"x1 is the mot= her of x2,
>> who is the mother x3"
>>
>> =A0Have I helped clear up anything?
>>
>> > -Alan
>> >
>> >
>> > On Thu, Feb 03, 2011 at 09:26:02AM -0500, Luke Bergen wrote:<= br> >> >> =A0 =A0that makes the most sense to me.. although my firs= t thought when I
>> >> saw
>> >> =A0 =A0{ponse ponse} was something like {ba'e ponse}.= .. not that I know
>> >> what the
>> >> =A0 =A0difference between {ponse} and {ba'e ponse} is= but... that was my
>> >> first
>> >> =A0 =A0thought. (though as I said, I do like gejyspa'= s interpretation
>> >> better).
>> >>
>> >> =A0 =A0On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 8:25 AM, Michael Turniansky=
>> >> =A0 =A0<[1]mt= urniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0An owner of an owner, I suppose...
>> >>
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0lo mi gerku cu ponse lo bolci .iseni'ibo m= i ponse ponse
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 10:16 PM, Pierre Abbat<= br> >> >> <[2]phma@phma.op= tus.nu>
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0wrote:
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0> On Wednesday 02 February 2011 14:44:22 .a= lyn.post. wrote:
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0>> .i fo ma fu lo nu valsi rapli cu tanr= u .i lu ponse ponse li'u
>> >> mupli
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0>>
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0>> What does word doubling mean in a tan= ru? For example: {ponse
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0>> ponse}
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0>
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0> "klakyklaku klakyklaku klaku" i= s used in The Restaurant of Many
>> >> Orders
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0> for "cried and cried and cried and c= ried and cried". "mamymamta"
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0(lujvo jenai
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0> tanru) means "maternal grandmother&q= uot;, and similarly "pafpatfu".
>> >> I'm not
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0sure
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0> what "ponse ponse" would mean.<= br> >> >> =A0 =A0 =A0>
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0> Pierre
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0> --
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0> I believe in Yellow when I'm in Swede= n and in Black when I'm in
>> >> Wales.
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0>
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0> --
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0> You received this message because you are= subscribed to the
>> >> Google
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0> To post to this group, send email to
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0[3]lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0> To unsubscribe from this group, send emai= l to
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0[4]lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.<= br> >> >> =A0 =A0 =A0> For more options, visit this group at
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0[5]http://groups.google.com/group/l= ojban-beginners?hl=3Den.
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0>
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0>
>> >>
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0--
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0You received this message because you are subs= cribed to the Google
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0To post to this group, send email to
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0[6]lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0To unsubscribe from this group, send email to<= br> >> >> =A0 =A0 =A0[7]lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.<= br> >> >> =A0 =A0 =A0For more options, visit this group at
>> >> =A0 =A0 =A0[8]http://groups.google.com/group/l= ojban-beginners?hl=3Den.
>> >>
>> >> =A0 =A0--
>> >> =A0 =A0You received this message because you are subscrib= ed to the Google
>> >> Groups
>> >> =A0 =A0"Lojban Beginners" group.
>> >> =A0 =A0To post to this group, send email to
>> >> lojb= an-beginners@googlegroups.com.
>> >> =A0 =A0To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> >> =A0 =A0lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> >> =A0 =A0For more options, visit this group at
>> >> =A0 =A0http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-b= eginners?hl=3Den.
>> >>
>> >> References
>> >>
>> >> =A0 =A0Visible links
>> >> =A0 =A01. mailto:mturniansky@gmail.com
>> >> =A0 =A02. mailto:ph= ma@phma.optus.nu
>> >> =A0 =A03. mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
>> >> =A0 =A04. mailto:lojban-beginners%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.co= m
>> >> =A0 =A05. http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n-beginners?hl=3Den
>> >> =A0 =A06. mailto:lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com
>> >> =A0 =A07. mailto:lojban-beginners%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.co= m
>> >> =A0 =A08. http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n-beginners?hl=3Den
>> >
>> > --
>> > .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle
>> > Groups "Lojban Beginners" group.
>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> > For more options, visit this group at
>> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl= =3Den.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= Groups
>> "Lojban Beginners" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den= .
>>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups
> "Lojban Beginners" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> loj= ban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den= .
>

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