From lojban-beginners+bncCNTPpI2KGxCR4vXqBBoEA5IdGw@googlegroups.com Thu Feb 17 11:04:06 2011 Received: from mail-qw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Pq991-0003ff-4x; Thu, 17 Feb 2011 11:04:06 -0800 Received: by qwd6 with SMTP id 6sf7417949qwd.16 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2011 11:03:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:x-authority-analysis :x-cloudmark-score:x-originating-ip:from:to:subject:date:user-agent :references:in-reply-to:mime-version:message-id:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-disposition; bh=SqbJq3D+LEEjS0/9ZU69ahbrtu5M/qWBQyuHZ9jZJL0=; b=K+SVwkwrIN+af98ONXHxoVjYADj70y974ufT4zpVEICJH63fzWS6aMvhCs/k5vWK3U wA9T70cW7dVzaJt1a5mLeR6dcKlzVomA7D7f376z2H967ovGqdCH9po7JfcI+xVJlEyi nORvwE3QBbqHM78ppbfc6F8+CAAy4QWH0ysxM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-authority-analysis:x-cloudmark-score :x-originating-ip:from:to:subject:date:user-agent:references :in-reply-to:mime-version:message-id:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-disposition; b=UqRPUQ0MF/5pKtPLjQnyELF7gL/iKZH866TueqAhv9MGoIqtoH269zgEeUI1zjjooS WcEnvG6K/4ENgt1NYnpvSOYOBF4l/bNZ5t6eLVb479z8WlGtnMURKzHoavfPZmtYeoNU 6gCptmYHHgsdRmsQm0/DLYBeageY8IDi4wohw= Received: by 10.229.43.234 with SMTP id x42mr456949qce.48.1297969425804; Thu, 17 Feb 2011 11:03:45 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.80.196 with SMTP id u4ls979164qck.0.p; Thu, 17 Feb 2011 11:03:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.229.31.17 with SMTP id w17mr573143qcc.7.1297969424661; Thu, 17 Feb 2011 11:03:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.229.31.17 with SMTP id w17mr573142qcc.7.1297969424644; Thu, 17 Feb 2011 11:03:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.120]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id v5si252643qce.0.2011.02.17.11.03.44; Thu, 17 Feb 2011 11:03:44 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 75.180.132.120 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of phma@phma.optus.nu) client-ip=75.180.132.120; X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=tLsyj04/L/SH/N6p42ldY6jXDYWe4pX5hAm6uRA1LKo= c=1 sm=0 a=Ubv3xljnCsIA:10 a=wPDyFdB5xvgA:10 a=Q9fys5e9bTEA:10 a=9o99xeNKNPYSmM5t9x5+TQ==:17 a=l2GSgG8GgKq6HzcZjz8A:9 a=WlCuwCV54UW5B1beqLHf9tlD7NEA:4 a=PUjeQqilurYA:10 a=9o99xeNKNPYSmM5t9x5+TQ==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 75.176.118.168 Received: from [75.176.118.168] ([75.176.118.168:43155] helo=chausie) by cdptpa-oedge02.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id F6/C5-05134-F017D5D4; Thu, 17 Feb 2011 19:03:43 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chausie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44DECE867 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2011 14:03:43 -0500 (EST) From: Pierre Abbat To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Question about {roda} Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 14:03:39 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.6 (enterprise 0.20070907.709405) References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <201102171403.40004.phma@phma.optus.nu> X-Original-Sender: phma@phma.optus.nu X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 75.180.132.120 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of phma@phma.optus.nu) smtp.mail=phma@phma.optus.nu Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline On Thursday 17 February 2011 13:42:46 .arpis. wrote: > I'm wondering about the usage of {roda} in lojban. In English, at least, > "everything" and "everyone" carry an implicit restriction; AFAIK lojban > does not do that, which makes {roda} without explicit restriction either > factually incorrect in most cases or useful only in very precise > conversation. Neither "da" nor "ma" is restricted to persons or things, as "who" and "what" are in English. A word can be implicitly restricted, as in "le cukta be bau lo fraso": "lo fraso" here refers to the French language, not a French person, which it might refer to elsewhere. > This has gotten me thinking more about the semantics of {da}. I seem to > recall that {da}'s binding has bridi scope. > If I say {da prenu} without a prenex, am I commenting on the existence of a > man {si} person (to'i damn sexist language creeping in when I don't think > toi)? > If I say {roda prenu} without a prenex, am I saying that all "things" in > the world are people? > Can I use {ko'a} without having explicitly assigned it e.g. {ko'a noi pendo > mi co'e} instead of {ko'a goi lo pendo be mi co'e}? "da prenu" means "there is a person". "roda prenu" means "everything/everyone is a person", where "roda" refers to everything in the universe of discourse, so unless the universe of discourse consists entirely of persons, it's false. "ko'a" can be used without being assigned; it's up to the listener to figure it out. I did this in le cmalu bloti; "ko'a" refers to the whole crew, or to the crew minus the boy, and "ko'e" refers to the boy. Pierre -- I believe in Yellow when I'm in Sweden and in Black when I'm in Wales. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en.