From lojban-beginners+bncCOib25n_BhCGmPbqBBoELvy-lg@googlegroups.com Thu Feb 17 12:59:10 2011 Received: from mail-yw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PqAwK-0002CL-Il; Thu, 17 Feb 2011 12:59:09 -0800 Received: by ywh1 with SMTP id 1sf2266599ywh.16 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2011 12:58:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=ZFKFpGqOKL4kfDWu0UWBe9aFG4RQQsUq8A6q26x7lFU=; b=xoDk/lpTiIaew+EDT09kl/FsRWBvwdV/sD1gX0UjCArbZa2yJkWbZRsEFi1JE63JGk YbPBlbzNjDG+IY5d+e59PdDDyA4SjLJKHG0iMHpPZ5mC2/36Vgqs4oLoTeIlJOw3RuPr pqvsaScXS8p33cEzg68YkYIVFO6Y2JLNS2N8k= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=CIbGybQBGHlkKH+vVJHYqRnet2LUwoGb6TGyIpoyJTbkPZPzAUXjC1daAXtDVgS5xt 3qqb+FjrSBgbtlVEn2oZ95oTOC/HbJoQJXj3cfZRhHdWoZ+4QZuwfHmLCP3TrNMx/pq8 4pXPrWt8ImxRJN9eqEfRFzwFk8av75iy/q4cE= Received: by 10.91.9.19 with SMTP id m19mr276983agi.43.1297976326361; Thu, 17 Feb 2011 12:58:46 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.76.165 with SMTP id c37ls2102027ibk.3.p; Thu, 17 Feb 2011 12:58:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.34.6 with SMTP id j6mr770764ibd.10.1297976325291; Thu, 17 Feb 2011 12:58:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.34.6 with SMTP id j6mr770763ibd.10.1297976325253; Thu, 17 Feb 2011 12:58:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iy0-f170.google.com (mail-iy0-f170.google.com [209.85.210.170]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id cu19si269338ibb.1.2011.02.17.12.58.45 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 17 Feb 2011 12:58:45 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.170 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.170; Received: by iyb39 with SMTP id 39so3518083iyb.15 for ; Thu, 17 Feb 2011 12:58:45 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.42.4.199 with SMTP id 7mr3548247ict.229.1297976323807; Thu, 17 Feb 2011 12:58:43 -0800 (PST) Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.42.141.67 with HTTP; Thu, 17 Feb 2011 12:58:43 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <201102171403.40004.phma@phma.optus.nu> References: <201102171403.40004.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 15:58:43 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Question about {roda} From: ".arpis." To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Cc: Pierre Abbat X-Original-Sender: rpglover64@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.170 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rpglover64@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0050450165afb51ab2049c80a9cb --0050450165afb51ab2049c80a9cb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I was aware that {roda} isn't restricted to people or physical objects, but it's difficult to express that in English. It's interesting that you refer to a "universe of discourse". Not having any strong background in linguistics, philosophy, or logic, I don't know what precisely this means, but it seems like it's what I'm thinking about. In English, when I say "Everyone's going home.", I am first of all probably exaggerating but second of all I really mean "Everyone [of the set who isn't me in the relevant location] is going home". It's like I said "roda [poi co'e] cu cliva". Does the universe of discourse always consist of all things that can possibly be talked about? Also, am I correct in my memory of {da}'s scope? On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 2:03 PM, Pierre Abbat wrote: > On Thursday 17 February 2011 13:42:46 .arpis. wrote: > > I'm wondering about the usage of {roda} in lojban. In English, at least, > > "everything" and "everyone" carry an implicit restriction; AFAIK lojban > > does not do that, which makes {roda} without explicit restriction either > > factually incorrect in most cases or useful only in very precise > > conversation. > > Neither "da" nor "ma" is restricted to persons or things, as "who" and > "what" > are in English. A word can be implicitly restricted, as in "le cukta be bau > lo fraso": "lo fraso" here refers to the French language, not a French > person, which it might refer to elsewhere. > > > This has gotten me thinking more about the semantics of {da}. I seem to > > recall that {da}'s binding has bridi scope. > > If I say {da prenu} without a prenex, am I commenting on the existence of > a > > man {si} person (to'i damn sexist language creeping in when I don't think > > toi)? > > If I say {roda prenu} without a prenex, am I saying that all "things" in > > the world are people? > > Can I use {ko'a} without having explicitly assigned it e.g. {ko'a noi > pendo > > mi co'e} instead of {ko'a goi lo pendo be mi co'e}? > > "da prenu" means "there is a person". "roda prenu" means > "everything/everyone > is a person", where "roda" refers to everything in the universe of > discourse, > so unless the universe of discourse consists entirely of persons, it's > false. > > "ko'a" can be used without being assigned; it's up to the listener to > figure > it out. I did this in le cmalu bloti; "ko'a" refers to the whole crew, or > to > the crew minus the boy, and "ko'e" refers to the boy. > > Pierre > -- > I believe in Yellow when I'm in Sweden and in Black when I'm in Wales. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. > > -- mu'o mi'e .arpis. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=en. --0050450165afb51ab2049c80a9cb Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was aware that {roda} isn't restricted to people or physical objects,= but it's difficult to express that in English.

It's interes= ting that you refer to a "universe of discourse".=A0 Not having a= ny strong background in linguistics, philosophy, or logic, I don't know= what precisely this means, but it seems like it's what I'm thinkin= g about.

In English, when I say "Everyone's going home.", I am fir= st of all probably exaggerating but second of all I really mean "Every= one [of the set who isn't me in the relevant location] is going home&qu= ot;.=A0 It's like I said "roda [poi co'e] cu cliva".

Does the universe of discourse always consist of all things that can po= ssibly be talked about?

Also, am I correct in my memory of {da}'= s scope?

On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 2:03 PM,= Pierre Abbat <p= hma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
On Thursday 17 February 2011 13:42:46 .arpis. wrote:
> I'm wondering about the usage of {roda} in lojban. =A0In English, = at least,
> "everything" and "everyone" carry an implicit rest= riction; AFAIK lojban
> does not do that, which makes {roda} without explicit restriction eith= er
> factually incorrect in most cases or useful only in very precise
> conversation.

Neither "da" nor "ma" is restricted to persons or= things, as "who" and "what"
are in English. A word can be implicitly restricted, as in "le cukta b= e bau
lo fraso": "lo fraso" here refers to the French language, no= t a French
person, which it might refer to elsewhere.

> This has gotten me thinking more about the semantics of {da}. I seem t= o
> recall that {da}'s binding has bridi scope.
> If I say {da prenu} without a prenex, am I commenting on the existence= of a
> man {si} person (to'i damn sexist language creeping in when I don&= #39;t think
> toi)?
> If I say {roda prenu} without a prenex, am I saying that all "thi= ngs" in
> the world are people?
> Can I use {ko'a} without having explicitly assigned it e.g. {ko= 9;a noi pendo
> mi co'e} instead of {ko'a goi lo pendo be mi co'e}?

"da prenu" means "there is a person". "roda = prenu" means "everything/everyone
is a person", where "roda" refers to everything in the unive= rse of discourse,
so unless the universe of discourse consists entirely of persons, it's = false.

"ko'a" can be used without being assigned; it's up to the= listener to figure
it out. I did this in le cmalu bloti; "ko'a" refers to the wh= ole crew, or to
the crew minus the boy, and "ko'e" refers to the boy.

Pierre
--
I believe in Yellow when I'm in Sweden and in Black when I'm in Wal= es.

--
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--
mu'o mi= 'e .arpis.

--
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