From lojban-beginners+bncCIycn8S8DhDK__nqBBoElbxClQ@googlegroups.com Fri Feb 18 06:19:10 2011 Received: from mail-qw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PqRAp-0000ln-HB; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 06:19:10 -0800 Received: by qwd6 with SMTP id 6sf9932649qwd.16 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 06:19:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=DWwaLg3giWiGmR/t2T+ZrBIRwo0ZhCAvwHeHPlEUFCk=; b=QwVU9lPm5acvakYZ6Q2H/7W3YIe0s1ZtAlezglwL95JzKNS8E/gaE433DByRUTlpKm jURyk9j+vhtmaesK3rpuRb39O6tlHJTJFlZExjPtl99tbu9vzQz2CZ4yzX0WABsflooC 5A40MnJVWbv7g9r+hO02v6ajtyXWDUflVXvco= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=oQ7UkxYjc1Q2IGm/Fdzchs3yhcTUbLom0vdSp6ATBUf43+J01sdarGWcmwaKfZiDP8 Nn0UdH89C/QvW89wfLsFYqwv6YPEd9pu/2qhJNgcHh66ofRbQuG1em7VqtclF65giidq BeRfjpiHsby4y9aXRdjA6GDT8aYHK7qEBYAn4= Received: by 10.224.80.213 with SMTP id u21mr68031qak.5.1298038730636; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 06:18:50 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.184.8 with SMTP id ci8ls703516qab.7.p; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 06:18:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.224.19.146 with SMTP id a18mr60726qab.0.1298038729671; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 06:18:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.224.19.146 with SMTP id a18mr60725qab.0.1298038729646; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 06:18:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qy0-f180.google.com (mail-qy0-f180.google.com [209.85.216.180]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 19si445195qci.1.2011.02.18.06.18.49 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 18 Feb 2011 06:18:49 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.180 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.180; Received: by qyk29 with SMTP id 29so3400509qyk.18 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 06:18:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.89.84 with SMTP id d20mr577955qcm.100.1298038729367; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 06:18:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.229.73.148 with HTTP; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 06:18:49 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <28379654.1304.1297380220015.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@prcm35> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 09:18:49 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] translation check on zo-related quote From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.180 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016364ede485e61e8049c8f31f7 --0016364ede485e61e8049c8f31f7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2011/2/17 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 5:20 PM, Michael Turniansky > wrote: > > On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 6:23 PM, Lindar wrote= : > >> > >> Didn't catch that because it's a weird construction. > >> What is the actual meaning of {mi broda je brode} and how does it diff= er > >> from {mi broda gi'e brode}? Obviously it has to have a different meani= ng > >> because of place structure defaults and tanru-ness, but what is this I > don't > >> even ^w^w^w^w^w^w^w^w^w^w^w^w^w^w^w^w^w^w^w^w^w^w > > > > "mi broda je broda" means that I am member of those things that are > both > > "broda" and "brode". Of it course that is also true iff "mi broda gi'e > > brode" - "I am broda" and "I am brode". The first construction basical= ly > > defines a set of things that is the intersection of two sets, and then > > asserts my place in that intersection, whereas the second construction > > asserts my membership in the two sets independently, and says that I am > in > > both. > > Another important difference is in their place structure. The place > structure of "broda gi'e brode" is fairly clear: > > (shared-sumti) broda (sumti-for-broda) gi'e brode (sumti-for-brode) > vau (shared-sumti). > > OTOH, nobody really knows what the place structure for "broda je > brode" is, other than for the x1 which works as gejyspa says. > Especially when broda and brode don't share identical structures. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > That is a very good point, and perhaps an exploitable one. For example, could we define the x2 of "broda JA brode" to be the x2 of both independently i.e. "x1 broda JA brode x2" (or "x1 x2 broda JA brode") -> "x1 broda GIhA brode vau x2" (this certainly seems to be the way that jbofi'e understands it. )? That would lead to interesting things like= : mi bajra jo farlu lo bisli po'o ("I am (runner-iff-faller) only on ice" -> Ice is the only surface I fall on when I'm running on that surface, and I fall on the ice when I'm running on ice. --gejyspa --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. --0016364ede485e61e8049c8f31f7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2011/2/17 Jorge Llamb=EDas <= ;jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 5:20 PM, Michael Turniansky
&l= t;mturniansky@gmail.com> wr= ote:
> On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 6:23 PM, Lindar <lindarthebard@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> Didn't catch that because it's a weird constru= ction.
>> What is the actual meaning of {mi broda je brode} and ho= w does it differ
>> from {mi broda gi'e brode}? Obviously it h= as to have a different meaning
>> because of place structure defaults and tanru-ness, but what is th= is I don't
>> even ^w^w^w^w^w^w^w^w^w^w^w^w^w^w^w^w^w^w^w^w^w^= w
>
> =A0 "mi broda je broda" means that I am member = of those things that are both
> "broda" and "brode".=A0 Of it course that is also = true iff "mi broda gi'e
> brode" - "I am broda&quo= t; and "I am brode".=A0 The first construction basically
> = defines a set of things that is the intersection of two sets, and then
> asserts my place in that intersection, whereas the second construction=
> asserts my membership in the two sets independently, and says that= I am in
> both.

Another important difference is i= n their place structure. The place
structure of "broda gi'e brode" is fairly clear:

(shar= ed-sumti) broda (sumti-for-broda) gi'e brode (sumti-for-brode)
vau (= shared-sumti).

OTOH, nobody really knows what the place structure fo= r "broda je
brode" is, other than for the x1 which works as gejyspa says.
Espec= ially when broda and brode don't share identical structures.

mu&= #39;o mi'e xorxes
=A0
=A0 That is a very good point, and perhaps an exploitable one= .
=A0
=A0 For example, could we define the x2 of "= ;broda JA brode" to be the x2 of both independently i.e. "x1 brod= a JA brode x2" (or "x1 x2 broda JA brode")=A0-> "x1 = broda=A0GIhA brode vau x2"=A0(this certainly seems to be the way that = jbofi'e understands it.=A0)?=A0 That would lead to interesting things l= ike: mi bajra jo farlu lo=A0bisli po'o=A0("I am (runner-iff-faller= ) only on ice" ->=A0Ice is the only surface I fall on when I'm = running on that surface, and I=A0fall on the ice when I'm running on ic= e.=A0
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa
=A0

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