From lojban-beginners+bncCIycn8S8DhCEvPrqBBoEZZjs1w@googlegroups.com Fri Feb 18 08:28:11 2011 Received: from mail-qy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PqTBe-0004vf-Ps; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 08:28:11 -0800 Received: by qyl38 with SMTP id 38sf10185474qyl.16 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 08:27:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Rmp2fXh6jejJPD/4uv7r5gH/uuXVjw0GiwiwLfMw+ls=; b=CZSsC/yzugl3K3hLbHaydCOb3WXT2z7Rv6LQskJKX81szto1WNWv6hF5AoqfoOBOXe Qp1A2fEC3Kpf8cpTQSwQGfjR8q5nvnIVQlxguxrJeacZB7Q4H9QuWDAUiP3rBdsKY9hH BBwtmXFppzdV7XMO6OKXCc5argm6t+2pzMQuY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=yufFgK96FsjrV2O/Q7ls2vMy9UVTKhHQkFv78xTb9Sp/KEznCUzYNcC6TvTQKJp+G6 AWAhSvvDqRP4F/BmptGx0tbEJTlUc0pIifTbFW4EQ3Wx/Igvop+ad+71xtoV+9ySaHcm mNGVFBViDWBUduWgUrZuEXGzcUX4Y+PEyBP10= Received: by 10.229.8.212 with SMTP id i20mr202624qci.17.1298046468563; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 08:27:48 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.89.83 with SMTP id d19ls499543vcm.5.p; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 08:27:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.52.163.34 with SMTP id yf2mr386168vdb.24.1298046467297; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 08:27:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.52.163.34 with SMTP id yf2mr386167vdb.24.1298046467277; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 08:27:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qw0-f53.google.com (mail-qw0-f53.google.com [209.85.216.53]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id e4si403270vcx.4.2011.02.18.08.27.47 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 18 Feb 2011 08:27:47 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.53 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.53; Received: by mail-qw0-f53.google.com with SMTP id 9so62168qwc.40 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 08:27:47 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.89.84 with SMTP id d20mr715393qcm.100.1298046467045; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 08:27:47 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.229.73.148 with HTTP; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 08:27:47 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <28379654.1304.1297380220015.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@prcm35> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 11:27:47 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] translation check on zo-related quote From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.53 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016364ede4891fbed049c90fe14 --0016364ede4891fbed049c90fe14 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2011/2/18 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 11:18 AM, Michael Turniansky > wrote: > > > > For example, could we define the x2 of "broda JA brode" to be the x2 = of > > both independently i.e. "x1 broda JA brode x2" (or "x1 x2 broda JA > > brode") -> "x1 broda GIhA brode vau x2" (this certainly seems to be the > way > > that jbofi'e understands it. )? > > The problem appears when broda and brode don't have parallel place > structures. Does "blanu je zdani" make sense? Is "ta blanu je zdani > mi" the same as "ta blanu mi .ije ta zdani mi"? Is "ta melbi je nixli > li so" the same as "ta melbi li so .ije ta nixli li so"? ("blanu je > zdani" and "melbi je nixli" are examples in CLL, but only the x1 is > considered.) > Yes, those are precisely what they mean. I don't understand your problem with something being nonsensical/non-grammatical. Saying "ta melbi li so" is as nonsensical as "ta melbi je nixli li so". If you have a problem with the latter, then you have a problem with the former. As well you should! It's up to the SPEAKER to make sure that something makes sense. If you are going to say, for example, "logically-connect tanru with more than one place should be disallowed because you can sometimes put things in the x2 place that make no sense" then you should also say "using the word 'melbi' should be disallowed, because you can sometimes put things inteh x2 place that don't make sense". Don't throw out a sueful construction/interpretation just because sometimes you can say nonsensical/non-grammatical things with it (and here btw, I'm using "non-grammatical" in the sense of "using sumti that don't match the specific types called for by the gismu). > > > That would lead to interesting things like: > > mi bajra jo farlu lo bisli po'o ("I am (runner-iff-faller) only on ice" > > -> Ice is the only surface I fall on when I'm running on that surface, > and > > I fall on the ice when I'm running on ice. > > "mi bajra jo farlu lo bisli lo tuple"? > > And even if one could contemplate falling from one's legs, I can't > imagine merging the gait with the gravity well (but I have no idea how > to specify either). > > (see above) --gejyspa > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. --0016364ede4891fbed049c90fe14 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2011/2/18 Jorge Llamb=EDas <= ;jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 11:18 AM, Michael Turniansky
&= lt;mturniansky@gmail.com> w= rote:
>
> =A0 For example, could we define the x2 of "brod= a JA brode" to be the x2 of
> both independently i.e. "x1 broda JA brode x2" (or "x1 = x2 broda JA
> brode")=A0-> "x1 broda=A0GIhA brode vau x2= "=A0(this certainly seems to be the way
> that jbofi'e under= stands it.=A0)?

The problem appears when broda and brode don't have parallel = place
structures. Does "blanu je zdani" make sense? Is "t= a blanu je zdani
mi" the same as "ta blanu mi .ije ta zdani mi= "? Is "ta melbi je nixli
li so" the same as "ta melbi li so .ije ta nixli li so"? (&q= uot;blanu je
zdani" and "melbi je nixli" are examples in = CLL, but only the x1 is
considered.)
=A0
=A0 Yes, those are precisely what they mean.=A0 I don't understand= your problem with something being nonsensical/non-grammatical.
=A0 Saying "ta melbi li so" is as nonsensical as "ta me= lbi je nixli li so".=A0 If you have a problem with the latter, then yo= u have a problem with the former.=A0 As well you should!=A0 It's up to = the SPEAKER to make sure that something makes sense.=A0 If you are going to= say, for example, "logically-connect tanru with more than one place s= hould be disallowed because you can sometimes put things in the x2 place th= at make no sense" then you should also say "using the word 'm= elbi' should be disallowed, because you can sometimes put things inteh = x2 place that don't make sense".=A0 Don't throw out a sueful c= onstruction/interpretation just because sometimes you can say nonsensical/n= on-grammatical=A0=A0things with it (and here btw, I'm using "non-g= rammatical" in the sense of "using sumti that don't match the= specific types called for by the gismu).
=A0

> That would lead to interesting things like:
&= gt; mi bajra jo farlu lo=A0bisli po'o=A0("I am (runner-iff-faller)= only on ice"
> ->=A0Ice is the only surface I fall on when I= 'm running on that surface, and
> I=A0fall on the ice when I'm running on ice.

"mi= bajra jo farlu lo bisli lo tuple"?

And even if one could conte= mplate falling from one's legs, I can't
imagine merging the gait= with the gravity well (but I have no idea how
to specify either).
=A0
=A0 (see above)
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa
=A0
=A0

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