From lojban-beginners+bncCIycn8S8DhCZ0vrqBBoEpIiyfQ@googlegroups.com Fri Feb 18 09:15:26 2011 Received: from mail-qy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PqTvO-0006JV-3Q; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 09:15:26 -0800 Received: by qyl38 with SMTP id 38sf10267955qyl.16 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 09:15:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=MqE+8APbc5AIXReJwRmZgLhxITCF4Jdz4vtbGwgir7s=; b=SmeTqkRiwBaqdiHWb/oFMLEFLVyVkBaj2N1GncaKzW55gkPqC+XTzeJN8gZhERLTqv 1+FFc4wzgPkFRO8XH9r+mE6jNocCKosRPGBzu2Beu9gvu85FQmO5inx9UVtVTFoS+XAU SAT08OWdzQltrySXHvpDKEdfollTswFATKPEg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=sPee3o7NOX4HF+rX1yyazMjTllgYJJ7s6SBNnUYfSeQ++y9nciPAWQzMS+pW7+gupi ZDVXdEsHe/+R58pZSJTkW8bx8RTI3k6k9bk8eFkLy8NUrdYSIeaVsNRNGwk4ssEu2km6 mZyflE9FX9aTMSzINwX4Ja4JVNkriFI2Iom8k= Received: by 10.229.229.200 with SMTP id jj8mr214672qcb.1.1298049305141; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 09:15:05 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.179.137 with SMTP id bq9ls740219qab.6.p; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 09:15:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.224.54.81 with SMTP id p17mr77831qag.19.1298049304092; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 09:15:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.224.54.81 with SMTP id p17mr77830qag.19.1298049304057; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 09:15:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qy0-f181.google.com (mail-qy0-f181.google.com [209.85.216.181]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id y9si476900qcc.4.2011.02.18.09.15.04 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 18 Feb 2011 09:15:04 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.181 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.181; Received: by qyk12 with SMTP id 12so3550194qyk.12 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 09:15:04 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.221.208 with SMTP id id16mr774344qcb.62.1298049189644; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 09:13:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.229.73.148 with HTTP; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 09:13:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <28379654.1304.1297380220015.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@prcm35> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 12:13:09 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] translation check on zo-related quote From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.181 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016363b7d26d98c64049c91a004 --0016363b7d26d98c64049c91a004 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2011/2/18 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 1:27 PM, Michael Turniansky > wrote: > > 2011/2/18 Jorge Llamb=EDas > >> > >> The problem appears when broda and brode don't have parallel place > >> structures. Does "blanu je zdani" make sense? Is "ta blanu je zdani > >> mi" the same as "ta blanu mi .ije ta zdani mi"? Is "ta melbi je nixli > >> li so" the same as "ta melbi li so .ije ta nixli li so"? ("blanu je > >> zdani" and "melbi je nixli" are examples in CLL, but only the x1 is > >> considered.) > > > > Yes, those are precisely what they mean. I don't understand your > problem > > with something being nonsensical/non-grammatical. > > It's grammatical, and I don't have a problem with grammatical nonsense. > > > Saying "ta melbi li so" is as nonsensical as "ta melbi je nixli li so= ". > > OK, but then isn't "ta melbi je nixli" equally nonsensical? Or does it > become sensical when you don't give an explicit value for x2? Or does > "melbi je nixli" not have an x2? Are JA-tanru like lujvo, whose place > structure cannot be worked out from the place structures of the > components? > > I would say that x2 of "melbi je nixli" can be anything that is both an age, and a perceiver of beauty. You will certainly grant that I can meaningfully ask, "ma se melbi gi'e se nixli" If the answer is "no da", then it is "no da", but that doesn't stop the x2 from existing, merely from being filled in any meaningful way. > > If you have a problem with the latter, then you have a problem with the > > former. As well you should! It's up to the SPEAKER to make sure that > > something makes sense. If you are going to say, for example, > > "logically-connect tanru with more than one place should be disallowed > > because you can sometimes put things in the x2 place that make no sense= " > > then you should also say "using the word 'melbi' should be disallowed, > > because you can sometimes put things inteh x2 place that don't make > sense". > > How many arguments does the tanru "melbi je nixli" have, and what is > the relationship that "melbi je nixli" expresses among its argumens? > Are you saying that "melbi je nixli" is a one-argument predicate? > It has four, but probably only the first, and fourth are meaningful for (well, of course, it has infinite, like every brivla, but only the first four are defined). Actually, the third could be useable, too. "la cilas. cu melbi je nixli fi lo merko" -- "Sheila is beautiful for her Americanness= , but is underage by American standards". But this is probably a cheat, sinc= e it means that "lo merko" as to be a single something that is both a standar= d of age, and a quality of beauty simultaneously. > > Don't throw out a sueful construction/interpretation just because > sometimes > > you can say nonsensical/non-grammatical things with it (and here btw, > I'm > > using "non-grammatical" in the sense of "using sumti that don't match t= he > > specific types called for by the gismu). > > I'm not throwing anything out, all I'm saying is that I don't know the > meaning of "broda JA brode" when the place structures of broda and > brode are not parallel. What is the type of sumti that "melbi je > nixli" calls for its second argument? Or, does it even have a second > argument place? > > Maybe the answer has to be that the place structure of "broda je > brode" cannot be determined in general, and it has to be defined on a > case by case basis, like the place structures of lujvo. Agreed. --gejyspa --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. --0016363b7d26d98c64049c91a004 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2011/2/18 Jorge Llamb=EDas <= ;jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 1:27 PM, Michael Turniansky
&l= t;mturniansky@gmail.com> wr= ote:
> 2011/2/18 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
>>
>> The problem appears when broda and brode don'= ;t have parallel place
>> structures. Does "blanu je zdani&qu= ot; make sense? Is "ta blanu je zdani
>> mi" the same as= "ta blanu mi .ije ta zdani mi"? Is "ta melbi je nixli
>> li so" the same as "ta melbi li so .ije ta nixli li so&q= uot;? ("blanu je
>> zdani" and "melbi je nixli"= ; are examples in CLL, but only the x1 is
>> considered.)
><= br> > =A0 Yes, those are precisely what they mean.=A0 I don't understand= your problem
> with something being nonsensical/non-grammatical.
=
It's grammatical, and I don't have a problem with grammat= ical nonsense.

> =A0 Saying "ta melbi li so" is as nons= ensical as "ta melbi je nixli li so".

OK, but then i= sn't "ta melbi je nixli" equally nonsensical? Or does it
become sensical when you don't give an explicit value for x2? Or does"melbi je nixli" not have an x2? Are JA-tanru like lujvo, whose= place
structure cannot be worked out from the place structures of the components?
=A0
=A0
=A0=A0 I would say that x2 of "melbi je nixli" can be anythi= ng that is both an age, and a perceiver of beauty.=A0 You will certainly gr= ant that I can meaningfully ask, "ma se melbi=A0gi'e se nixli"= ;=A0 If the answer is "no da", then it is "no da", but = that doesn't stop the x2 from existing, merely from being filled in any= meaningful way.
=A0
> If you have a problem with the latter, then you have= a problem with the
> former.=A0 As well you should!=A0 It's up t= o the SPEAKER to make sure that
> something makes sense.=A0 If you ar= e going to say, for example,
> "logically-connect tanru with more than one place should be disal= lowed
> because you can sometimes put things in the x2 place that mak= e no sense"
> then you should also say "using the word '= ;melbi' should be disallowed,
> because you can sometimes put things inteh x2 place that don't mak= e sense".

How many arguments does the tanru "melbi j= e nixli" have, and what is
the relationship that "melbi je nix= li" expresses among its argumens?
Are you saying that "melbi je nixli" is a one-argument predicate?=
=A0
It has four, but probably only the first,=A0=A0and fourth are meaningf= ul for (well, of course, it has infinite, like every brivla, but only the f= irst four are defined).=A0 Actually, the third could be useable, too.=A0 &q= uot;la cilas. cu melbi je nixli fi lo merko" -- "Sheila is beauti= ful=A0for her Americanness, but is underage by American standards".=A0= But this is probably a cheat, since it means that "lo merko" as = to be a single something that is both a standard of age, and a quality of b= eauty simultaneously.
=A0
> Don't throw out a sueful construction/interpreta= tion just because sometimes
> you can say nonsensical/non-grammatical= =A0=A0things with it (and here btw, I'm
> using "non-grammat= ical" in the sense of "using sumti that don't match the
> specific types called for by the gismu).

I'm not thro= wing anything out, all I'm saying is that I don't know the
meani= ng of "broda JA brode" when the place structures of broda and
brode are not parallel. What is the type of sumti that "melbi je
ni= xli" calls for its second argument? Or, does it even have a second
= argument place?

Maybe the answer has to be that the place structure = of "broda je
brode" cannot be determined in general, and it has to be defined on a<= br>case by case basis, like the place structures of lujvo.
=A0
=A0 Agreed.
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa
=A0

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