From lojban-beginners+bncCMHEmaCOBhDNpvzqBBoE4jvQ1w@googlegroups.com Fri Feb 18 16:48:36 2011 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Pqazw-0002W0-U0; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 16:48:36 -0800 Received: by gyf2 with SMTP id 2sf397901gyf.16 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 16:48:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=tKX8YajTw5d5U7c8NR5qH1N38unXzyf9uhLOJoNTb+8=; b=UqExEtHH5EOJ6/k6QIVzQhiE3Jy6NZxgOv/gU8CXpTTJGQQ3MND+lBkJkVKgZ8XNqn 4GCfLKXLEk2qEJdrism6rRRrL0osmRjXmS411l0d65wrqNmgM2BnMpKOoRegFbINAwGE ThgT8myFemlJjaPILvyeJeu/xFp/IbwAVm9Ls= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=lkeatgP6l9HsF1hml0l5bPhHwOhNBfCBQ6VOf445jQYOJsAxpDre1AtSmy54tQSDT3 vKJW+kS+YZV1LZG1YU1/SBRza8QuTccsmpft8Y14R7d+yRenhjNyeh2EOIAeIASr3gr/ dI6Hqxr03H9s2D0nuR3NUmtwkwkapnbpYi7vk= Received: by 10.150.230.19 with SMTP id c19mr232482ybh.56.1298076494024; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 16:48:14 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.76.165 with SMTP id c37ls3101086ibk.3.p; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 16:48:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.160.209 with SMTP id o17mr385565ibx.19.1298076493017; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 16:48:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.160.209 with SMTP id o17mr385564ibx.19.1298076492986; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 16:48:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-iw0-f170.google.com (mail-iw0-f170.google.com [209.85.214.170]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id cu19si554279ibb.1.2011.02.18.16.48.12 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 18 Feb 2011 16:48:12 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.170 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.170; Received: by iwn6 with SMTP id 6so4396473iwn.29 for ; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 16:48:12 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.42.175.72 with SMTP id az8mr1681552icb.47.1298076492599; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 16:48:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.200.198 with HTTP; Fri, 18 Feb 2011 16:48:12 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <201102171403.40004.phma@phma.optus.nu> <201102171622.02738.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 17:48:12 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban-beginners] Question about {roda} From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.170 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com; contact lojban-beginners+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=90e6ba6e8f503b90b0049c97fcfa --90e6ba6e8f503b90b0049c97fcfa Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm siding with the context side on this one. Considering how often and how much we Lojbanists typically leave up to context, I don't see any reason wh= y {roda} can't either. And no, {la.lojban. logji} isn't. {la.lojban. na logji .iku'i lo gerna po'e la.lojban. ba'e logji} On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 2:31 PM, Ian Johnson wrote= : > My two cents: Luke's quoted post below (especially the srana trick) is th= e > best solution if you don't want to be exact but do want to be truthful; I > was actually considering mentioning the srana idea before I read this pos= t. > > As for reasoning: > Allowing the universe of discourse, something that as of now cannot be > explicitly assigned easily (can you {zo'u} over multiple sentences > explicitly?) to simply fluctuate wildly with context is not a good standa= rd > policy. > It's really, really easy to do. > It makes sense in general; you want to confine to pertinent things, so yo= u > do. Done. > > mu'o mi'e .latros. > > > On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Luke Bergen wrot= e: > >> That makes sense. {ro} should behave the same for both: {ro prenu cu >> xebni mi} and {ro flira cu spati}. >> >> If you want to restrict the {ro} of something you can always use an inne= r >> quantifier right? {ro lo ci prenu cu xebni mi}. Or a tanru which also >> effectively restricts the {ro} by means of narrowing what it is that you= are >> taking "all" of. {ro lo srana prenu cu xebni mi}. >> >> ta'o over the past couple of days I've begun to realize that {srana} can >> be an absurdly handy word for when you feel like being lazy and vague bu= t >> still want to be grammatical. Don't want to talk about all the dogs in = the >> world? No problem, just throw a {srana} in there and it's like a big >> flashing light saying "you know what I'm talking about". It's like the >> selbri/tanru-ing equivalent of {tu'a} or something. >> >> 2011/2/18 Jorge Llamb=EDas >> >> On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Michael Turniansky >>> wrote: >>> > >>> > I respectfully disagree. Da and friends are specifically existentia= l >>> > variables. If they are not qualified with NOI or GOI, or some other >>> > mechanism, "ro da" MUST refer to everything, talked about or not. I >>> would >>> > prefer "ro zo'e" or even "lo romei" to unqualified "ro da" if you are >>> only >>> > talking about somethings in the universe. The purpose of "da" is to >>> make >>> > existential claims, and youundercut that if you use it for something >>> else. >>> > (So yes, "ro prenu cu xebni mi" and not "roda xebni mi" for "everybod= y >>> hates >>> > me") >>> >>> But when someone says "everybody hates me" they usually don't mean to >>> include themselves, or people who have never heard of them. There's >>> usually some implicit restriction involved in the context: "everybody >>> relevant to what I'm saying". Not every person who has ever lived, or >>> ever will live or ever could live, or imaginary persons, or persons >>> that perhaps exist in another planet, or... So if you think that "ro >>> da" is bad because it is too general, then "ro prenu" is just as bad, >>> since a mere restriction to people is nowhere near enough. >>> >>> mu'o mi'e xorxes >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps >>> "Lojban Beginners" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. >>> >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "Lojban Beginners" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Lojban Beginners" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-beginners?hl=3Den. > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu d= o zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den. --90e6ba6e8f503b90b0049c97fcfa Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm siding with the context side on this one. Considering how often and= how much we Lojbanists typically leave up to context, I don't see any = reason why {roda} can't either. And no, {la.lojban. logji} isn't. {= la.lojban. na logji .iku'i lo gerna po'e la.lojban. ba'e logji}=

On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 2:31 PM, Ian Johnson= <blindbrava= do@gmail.com> wrote:
My two cents: Luke's quoted post below (especially the srana trick) is = the best solution if you don't want to be exact but do want to be truth= ful; I was actually considering mentioning the srana idea before I read thi= s post.

As for reasoning:
Allowing the universe of discourse, something that= as of now cannot be explicitly assigned easily (can you {zo'u} over mu= ltiple sentences explicitly?) to simply fluctuate wildly with context is no= t a good standard policy.
It's really, really easy to do.
It makes sense in general; you want = to confine to pertinent things, so you do. Done.

mu'o mi'e .= latros.


On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
That makes sense.= =A0{ro} should behave the same for both: {ro prenu cu xebni mi} and {ro fl= ira cu spati}.

If you want to restrict the {ro} of something you can always= use an inner quantifier right? =A0{ro lo ci prenu cu xebni mi}. =A0Or a ta= nru which also effectively restricts the {ro} by means of narrowing what it= is that you are taking "all" of. =A0{ro lo srana prenu cu xebni = mi}.

ta'o over the past couple of days I've begun to= realize that {srana} can be an absurdly handy word for when you feel like = being lazy and vague but still want to be grammatical. =A0Don't want to= talk about all the dogs in the world? =A0No problem, just throw a {srana} = in there and it's like a big flashing light saying "you know what = I'm talking about". =A0It's like the selbri/tanru-ing=A0equiva= lent=A0of {tu'a} or something.

2011/2/18 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllamb= ias@gmail.com>

On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 11:35 AM, Michael Turniansky
<mturniansky@= gmail.com> wrote:
>
> =A0 I respectfully disagree. Da and friends are specifically existenti= al
> variables.=A0 If they are not qualified with NOI or GOI, or some other=
> mechanism,=A0"ro da" MUST refer to everything, talked about = or not.=A0 I would
> prefer "ro zo'e" or even "lo romei" to unquali= fied "ro da" if you are only
> talking about somethings in the universe.=A0 The purpose of "da&q= uot; is to make
> existential claims, and youundercut that if you use it for something e= lse.
> (So yes, "ro prenu cu xebni mi" and not "roda xebni mi&= quot; for "everybody hates
> me")

But when someone says "everybody hates me" they usually don= 't mean to
include themselves, or people who have never heard of them. There's
usually some implicit restriction involved in the context: "everybody<= br> relevant to what I'm saying". Not every person who has ever lived,= or
ever will live or ever could live, or imaginary persons, or persons
that perhaps exist in another planet, or... So if you think that "ro da" is bad because it is too general, then "ro prenu" is jus= t as bad,
since a mere restriction to people is nowhere near enough.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Lojban Beginners" group.
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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be = denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I= am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Lojban Beginners" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban-beginners@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban-beginners+unsubscribe@= googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= -beginners?hl=3Den.
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